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Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

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And you know what is heartless, politcal, when you can look at children clearly in tomernt and begging for help and best thing you can do is delay their development and force them into a limbo for years where their psychological health will probably be damaged beyond repair, and that's if they don't kill themselves in the mean time. There is a cost to not allowing trans children to transition and everyone speaks as if only the well being of cis children matter and that anyone in this field who is working with trans people, and not against them, must have a political agenda. This is bullshit! This is toxic.

And the reason Zucker is now trash is because he was toxic and trans people always knew that, but we've only just gained a voice.

Surely, there a sensible middle ground that balances the risks of providing permanent treatment to transition (which has side effects and significant risks) and those of nor doing so (which can also cause great harm), until children are competent to make such a significant decision?
 
btw I'm not ignoring the discussion about children transitioning / delaying puberty etc just don't know much about the issue and reading up about it.
 
Clair De Lune 's post a couple of pages back, I've been trying to let it soak in a bit what she said about how sometimes you just have to accept that you don't understand a thing and that your not understanding it doesn't make it any less true or less real.
I think basically for me thats the nub of it: I'm in the habit of feeling entitled to understand or relate to something so if I can't get the answers I want that will fully satisfy my curiosity that's difficult and uncomfortable, its hard to just accept that I don't get it. In this case - re what does it mean to be trans, what does it consist of- I reckon its my 'job' to just accept that I may never get it, that's just how it is and I have to be ok with not understanding it basically, which is a little bit hard because i'm not used to making that effort, putting my desire to make sense of it to one side and accepting my ignorance. Probably just stating the blindingly obvious sorry.
 
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AuntiStella - no one is attacking you (I hope) or your identity. I know it's been a really long and hard road for you.

Aaand I wrote that before the last couple of posts you made which have made me realise that you've probably put me on ignore. And I don't really get your last post but I'm sure it makes sense to some people.

I have every sympathy for gender-non-conforming children. I'm a mother of a kid who doesn't fit any of the things - not just the gender ones. I don't think it's right to give children life-altering drugs though, however much they may think they want them. It's our job as parents to choose the lesser of two evils a lot of the time. It's pretty hard going.
 
The reason trans children don't get the treatment we need is because no one believes us. There are literally thousands of intelligent adults who have experienced growing up trans. Most of us went through some level of torment. Few of us didn't get damaged by it. But our voice doesn't count. One parliament debate ever and that was trolled by a Labour MP who had been got at by a TERF.
Anyone who identifies as a Marxist but stands by decisions made by the state, by the conservative patriarchical state we live in, rather than listen to lived experience of oppressed human beings is a charlatan.

This is a series of strawmen: It's not a case of being disbelieved; nobody is denying the potential harm of withholding treatment (rather querying whether it should be balanced against the potential harms of providing it); disagreeing with you is not the same as saying your voice doesn't count; being a marxist doesn't mean thinking we should do the opposite of everything the state does (else we'd be calling to ban gay marriage, for example); and, the experience of one group of people isn't the definitive answer to any question - on this thread, weepiper offered an alternative experience, which you were quick to dismiss (quite rudely, in my opinon).

Do you at least agree there's a risk of causing harm by allowing children to transition before they're competent to appreciate the significance of that choice?
 
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Athos is a charlatan and a hypocrite and is desperate for the favour of a bunch of abusive women who will always view men like him with complete contempt.

It's pitiful really. Sad.

I think it's really sad that we can't have a sensible dicussion, especially as I'd thought we'd reached a stage where that might be possible - me having apologised for any ill feeling in the past, and resolved to behave extra respectfully (which I think I have in this discussion). But it still comes down to you abusing me. I'm not abusing you, or denying your right to be a woman, or anything like that. I'm just explaining that there's risks to what you seem to be advocating. Of course, you're under no obligation to engage with the debate (and, if it causes you distress, it's fine to ask me not to pursue it, as you did last night, and I respected), but to try to shut it down with name calling is intellectually dishonest and morally bankrupt.
 
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I don't think it's right to give children life-altering drugs though, however much they may think they want them. It's our job as parents to choose the lesser of two evils a lot of the time. It's pretty hard going.

Does this apply to drugs for any other condition by any chance? There are plenty of life-altering drugs for life-altering conditions given to children. Presumably you're against all of them, regardless of their success rate at averting death.
 
Does this apply to drugs for any other condition by any chance? There are plenty of life-altering drugs for life-altering conditions given to children. Presumably you're against all of them, regardless of their success rate at averting death.
Yes it does. I thought that was pretty much the standard for most drugs. When you say 'averting death', what do you mean?
 
Funny how all these protecters of children have nothing to say about the awful treatment of intersex children. Many of whom are arbitrarily assigned a gender which they do not identify as but of course they have no rights to self identify because the basis for the intersex experiments is the belief that gender is entirely about how you are socialised.

A baby boy with abnormally small penis, yeah why not make him a girl and bring up as such? What can go wrong. Well it doesn't work. Look up John/ Joan case. Completely disproves everything that TERFs believe in, but they don't talk about it. Plus - I have a friend who is intersex, was a boy, they made him a boy at first but something went wrong post surgery so they decided to make him a girl. He remembers going in for surgery all through his childhood. They forced him through a female puberty. Now he looks like a woman but he's a man and his genitals are fucked. He had complications on his complications. This is the fucking hypocricy. No one gives a toss about children who get assigned to the wrong gender and forced to be a gender they are not - operated on in childhood, or forced to take hormones. They just hate trans people. That's what it's about. I call it now. Transphobia. Society is deeply invested in the binary and in cissexism.

First, Do No Harm: ensuring the rights of children born intersex.

Another strawman. I don't think intersex kids should have surgery before they have the competence to make such a significant decision about their future. Where'sthe hypocrisy? That's exactly the same line I'd take for kids with gender dysphoria.
 
Who has said that then? All I said was I thought identity should be secondary to class. The oppossing view thinks class isn't relevant at all.
This would seem to depend very much on what you allow to be a class in the first place.

There was narry a peep from the forum thread when I posted that I found their caution with regard to the polyamourous class very interesting.
 
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Funny how all these protecters of children have nothing to say about the awful treatment of intersex children. Many of whom are arbitrarily assigned a gender which they do not identify as but of course they have no rights to self identify because the basis for the intersex experiments is the belief that gender is entirely about how you are socialised.

A baby boy with abnormally small penis, yeah why not make him a girl and bring up as such? What can go wrong. Well it doesn't work. Look up John/ Joan case. Completely disproves everything that TERFs believe in, but they don't talk about it. Plus - I have a friend who is intersex, was a boy, they made him a boy at first but something went wrong post surgery so they decided to make him a girl. He remembers going in for surgery all through his childhood. They forced him through a female puberty. Now he looks like a woman but he's a man and his genitals are fucked. He had complications on his complications. This is the fucking hypocricy. No one gives a toss about children who get assigned to the wrong gender and forced to be a gender they are not - operated on in childhood, or forced to take hormones. They just hate trans people. That's what it's about. I call it now. Transphobia. Society is deeply invested in the binary and in cissexism.

First, Do No Harm: ensuring the rights of children born intersex.
What the fuck are you talking about? You're calling me a TERF for being concerned about the health of trans-identified children? And intersex has nothing to do with trans and it's a total strawman that you're trying to co-opt it as a basis for argument.

I worry about your health about being on long-term HRT even if you don't. But you're an adult and you made the choice in full knowledge of the risks. A child is unable to make those choices.
 
Funny how all these protecters of children have nothing to say about the awful treatment of intersex children. Many of whom are arbitrarily assigned a gender which they do not identify as but of course they have no rights to self identify because the basis for the intersex experiments is the belief that gender is entirely about how you are socialised.

A baby boy with abnormally small penis, yeah why not make him a girl and bring up as such? What can go wrong. Well it doesn't work. Look up John/ Joan case. Completely disproves everything that TERFs believe in, but they don't talk about it. Plus - I have a friend who is intersex, was a boy, they made him a boy at first but something went wrong post surgery so they decided to make him a girl. He remembers going in for surgery all through his childhood. They forced him through a female puberty. Now he looks like a woman but he's a man and his genitals are fucked. He had complications on his complications. This is the fucking hypocricy. No one gives a toss about children who get assigned to the wrong gender and forced to be a gender they are not - operated on in childhood, or forced to take hormones. They just hate trans people. That's what it's about. I call it now. Transphobia. Society is deeply invested in the binary and in cissexism.

First, Do No Harm: ensuring the rights of children born intersex.
I agree with athos on this one. It is a straw man as nobody has said this, and that someone hasn't mentioned something doesn't mean they don't have anything to say on the subject.

fwiw I think what has happened historically to intersex people has been horrific, and it clearly highlights the inadequacy of the current system, which assigns gender at birth or soon after by apparent biological sex, and has strictly one of two boxes to tick. If you read closely what FabricLiveBaby! and others have said, I think you'll see that their positions are not incompatible with the idea that this is wrong and should be changed. In fact, they provide a way forward towards addressing it, which is to challenge the idea of assigning gender in this way in the first place.

In fact, the more I think about this, the more I think that the legal practice of assigning gender at birth with a certificate that will form the basis of your legal identity is horribly flawed and should be changed.
 
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I really think its worth reading the response to those studies which is referred to in that piece but not adequately IMO

The End of the Desistance Myth | HuffPost
Singal tackles this head-on. In fact she appears to reference this very article.

What is inadequate about this?

If Tannehill, Serano, and other critics of the desistance literature like Kristina Olson and Lily Durwood in Slate are correct and the kids at the GIC and the Amsterdam clinic were really just gender nonconforming — if they were little boys who liked to do ballet and play with dolls, for example, but didn’t otherwise express any discomfort with being boys — then these critics would be right to suspect that the desistance literature is misleading. It would be garbage-in, garbage-out thing: If you aren’t studying kids who really had gender dysphoria in the first place, your followup data about them isn’t going to tell you much.


But is that really what was happening? At the time of Singh’s dissertation and her subjects’ treatment at the GIC, gender dysphoria was captured by the DSM-IV entry for what was then called “gender identity disorder,” which has since been renamed, in the DSM-5, to the less pathologizing “gender dysphoria.” Singh notes that of the 139 participants she successfully contacted for followup, “88 (63.3%) met diagnostic criteria for GID in childhood and the remaining 51 (36.7%) were subthreshold for the diagnosis,” which is close to the 70 percent figure Zucker and his colleagues have noted when describing the GID’s patient population overall. (I Twitter DMed Tannehill to ask where she got her “72 percent” and “90 percent” numbers from. She said she was extrapolating from a set of 12 random patient charts examined during the investigation of Zucker’s clinic. But there’s no need to extrapolate like this, since we have the actual percentages for both Singh’s study and the broader patient population. Tannehill has since removed those figures from her article.)

Serious q - I might have missed something - but she appears to be saying that they recognised the potential problem and went back to check.
 
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