Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?
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trashpony
Hag
I've deleted my reply then
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
This is a very good question. I think society is very fucked up over this stuff and there is a wholly unjustified imperative to make a biological judgement on babies in order to assign them a legal gender no matter what.
But I don't see anyone disagreeing.
trashpony
Hag
Agreed. But not all trans people agree about all things trans. Miranda Yardley is also trans. And there are quite a few transwomen I know on the boards who haven't participated in this discussion
I've only had a brief scan through the studies linked in that article (it's a massive PITA on mobile and I'd have to go to the library for a computer) so correct me if I'm wrong, but they all seem to be about children with gender dysphoria. Desistance rates in any studies I've seen involving adolescents were all much lower (mobile bollocks, can try and dig links out over the weekend). Important distinction, since irreversible medical transition is only an option for adolescents.
Also, not all that relevant to the wider discussion but I'm not sure changing birth records affects the NHS's ability to see who's trans - you can certainly change the gender marker on your NHS records without a GRC (which is required for a new birth certificate to be issued). NHS policy is that you should be issued a new NHS number too.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The two recent studies she concentrates on both involve follow-up on case studies of children <12 years old, so yes, they basically both consider pre-pubescent gd and its desistance rates into adolescence/young adulthood.
The same charge, that many of the children were non-conforming rather than gender dysphoric, is made against the Amsterdam study and this is not addressed. The author of that study later did a follow up however and found that the degree of gender dysphoria is in indicator of whether the dysphoria persists into adulthood.
I'd question anything that came out of Zucker's clinic, it seems pretty clear he believe in reparative therapy and these concerns are not adequately explored in the link trashpony posted. The fact that 80 of the subjects were not actually followed up but just assumed to be 'cured' is also not really addressed,
An example of his work by the way
No to be fair I haven't, I can only find the abstract for one without paying and the other seems to be 341 pager long, but I will try and have a look.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I've long thought that it is about time full access to all scientific papers was placed in the public domain. So I'm left unable to judge this paper without paying money. It's linked to in support of Brynn Tannehill's critique of the desistance studies, but I can't judge it all that well on its abstract.
This study doesn't seem from its abstract to support the case against desistance. Also, how many people who are transgender in later life presented socially as that gender as young children? How many were allowed to? It seems to me to be a self-selecting study, and while perhaps interesting, I'm not sure what it proves.
This study doesn't seem from its abstract to support the case against desistance. Also, how many people who are transgender in later life presented socially as that gender as young children? How many were allowed to? It seems to me to be a self-selecting study, and while perhaps interesting, I'm not sure what it proves.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
yes, which isn't so surprising. I'd quite like to see some more detail on that - how much of an indicator?
Agree with you about Zucker btw. Reading more about him, he can fuck the fuck off.
kabbes
First intersubjective, then internalised
Have you tried Science Huβ Publishing – Leading the Information Highway ? It's like the pirate bay of scientific papers.
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
Is this still 2017? I'm utterly confused why boys liking ballet is seen as 'gender non conforming' rather than just being that boys like ballet. Ballet isn't inherently girly, football isn't inherently boy like. I thought it was all about trying to break down these shitty stereotypes and the amount of reinforcing on this thread is a fucking joke.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
To answer this, the law has only recently recognised gender at all (and just the two). I liked your post because although this is some kind of improvement gender is a very personal thing. Everyone has one of their very own, everyone different.
And of course there are male ballerinas and female squaddies. Children of either sex doing either activity is no cause for concern, which is why we should only talk about gender dysphoria in children, and not describe them as trans.
If you're willing to think of gender like this, I'm willing to bet that the squaddie gender type is considerably older, in terms of our evolution, than the dancer gender type.
And of course there are male ballerinas and female squaddies. Children of either sex doing either activity is no cause for concern, which is why we should only talk about gender dysphoria in children, and not describe them as trans.
If you're willing to think of gender like this, I'm willing to bet that the squaddie gender type is considerably older, in terms of our evolution, than the dancer gender type.
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Athos
Well-Known Member
That's like saying people who've had a heart attack know more than cardiologists.
Sure, trans people know more about what it's like to be trans, of course. But that doesn't mean that the philosophical conclusions they draw from that experience (e.g. about the nature of gender) are necessarily correct, nor any clinical ones.
And, there's the issue that not all trans people think the same.
Also, TERFs could just as easily assert authority by saying that women are the experts on women. Or anyone could say that anyone with a gender is an expert on gender.
Plus, we're currently discussing people who aren't trans i.e. children who had some level of discomfort with their gender, but did not transition. A well respected poster gave their experience of exactly that. But you dismissed them as speaking out of their arse. You seem to reserve the 'experience = expert' thing for yourself (whilst calling others hypocrites).
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beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Stuff like this is why an awful lot of people have given up trying to have any kind of debate with you.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I guess there's two approaches to the constraints gender puts on everyone (but which some feel much more acutely than others): first, to reject gender altogether i.e. to say that playing with dolls isn't a female thing; or, secondly, to allow people to choose which aspects of that system of constraint apply to them i.e. to allow males who play with dolls to identify as girls.
On the face of it, the former looks preferable, particularly to those who argue that the latter reinforces the the system which underpins women's oppression. But, that places a big burden on trans people, asking them to suffer whilst the vast majority of cis people often do little to challange gender.
As a cis man, I think the best I can do to balance the long-term need to move beyond gender against the immediate goal of compassion for the suffering of trans people, is to respect trans people's gender identity, whilst trying to break down the idea of gender e.g. by setting an example for my kids that it's possible for people of either sex to behave how they want.
But, I disagree with some trans people that my respecting their gender identity requires me to accept uncritically all their ideas about gender, or how society should react to every trans issue. Indeed, in many instances, I think challenging those ideas is necessary as part of that second goal (and other concerns). But, given the shit they get, any such disagreement should be done sensitively and respectfully. And that, sometimes, it's more important not to take up every point of disagreement, because of the risk of undermining that general solidarity.
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purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
I have no desire to see trans people suffer. I'm unclear why my post might have suggested that.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Is that a reply to me? If so, I apologise if I implied that; I certainly don't think you do.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
Worth noting here that a materialist theory of consciousness doesn't have to be true, it only has to be useful.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Being disagreed with is not the same as being silenced (or attacked). And, frankly, you're going to be disagreed with if you keep posting stuff that's demonstrably rubbish e.g. accusing people of saying something that they quite clearly haven't.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
AuntiStella, I'm not trying to get at you but I really think you're best off walking away from this thread (for a couple of days at least). It's obviously upsetting you and I'm sorry for that but from where I'm standing over the last few pages people have tried to be really respectful of your feelings. They disagree with what you've said but that doesn't mean they are gas lighting you, displaying fake concern or anything else.
The irony of having an ignore list whilst bemoaning not being listened to.
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