Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm not the poster you quoted but I can give another trans person's perspective on this if you're interested.

I'm not a ... whatever kind of scientist looks at this stuff (?) I'm not one of them so I don't know if this is right, but something that made a lot of sense to me when I read it in a discussion was the idea that gender ROLES etc are a social construct, but having some kind of internal gender identity is inate. (I think that was touched on earlier in the thread, a suggestion that there's a genetic element?). As a side note, I do wonder whether it's even possible to get rid of gender roles etc completely or whether the best we can hope for is stereotypes that are much less harmful, not linked to oppression etc and not enforced.

So anyway, you have your internal gender identity which is who you are; gender roles which is what society says [gender] should do; and gender expression which is how you express your identity through manipulation of the roles available. They're not entirely separate things, but gender expression and identity aren't linked in a simple, x=y way.

To give a personal example, I didn't choose to transition so I can lift weights and do martial arts and have short hair. I could, and did, do all of those things as a (often gnc) woman. Being masculine or feminine wasn't the problem - being a woman was the problem, for me. I chose to transition because my body on testosterone is so, so right and wonderful and having breasts is just wrong. I chose to transition because as far back as age 4 I remember looking at the boys, or later men, and having a feeling that I should be there. Not because of anything they were doing, just a certainty that I should be in that group too.

There's a thousand little things I could list and none of them are specifically what determines my gender, but they all add up to a bigger picture.

Some of the "masculine" stuff I do is unconscious; I just do it without thinking and always have done. Some is a choice but unrelated to gender expression; I do it because I want to, not because it makes me male or female. Some is a choice and related to gender expression; I do it because it's easier, or I don't want to draw attention to myself at that moment, or to avoid being read as female.
Same with "feminine" things. Some are unconscious; I just do them without thinking. Some are intentional; I do them because it's who I am or what I want to do. Some I do intentionally because fuck nonsense gender bullshit.

Cis people do the same thing. We can all choose how and to what extent we use gender expression & roles/stereotypes to express our gender. They only express gender though, not determine it.

Thanks for that iona. I recognise that it might be wearying for people to feel they need to understand. But at the same time, I hate the idea that it's inevitable that we're all just locked up inside ourselves and any understanding is impossible. Surely we communicate in order to try to understand each other better. I think this post has helped me to understand something more of what it is to be you. I certainly think such a thing is possible.

 

[Jonti]

Interesting. I think the only potentially controversial bit is the idea that gender is innate. Can you understand why, for women in particular, there's a reluctance to accept this without sufficient scientific evidence, given that the idea of innate psychological/behavioural differences between the sexes (and the content of some of those differences) has long been a tool for the oppression of women?

Personally, as a man, it's less of an issue for me, so I'm happy to subscribe to a model where gender identity = gender (not least of all because the harm to trans purple that can arise from not doing so). But, unlike too many trans people, I wouldn't seek to stop women having the discussion.

My gender is nerd. But it's my own personal nerd, so it fits me well. It's not perfect because to some fascinating extent* it's imposed, unlike language. I think sex is just what's between my legs, it doesn't limit me as a person.

I've no idea what gender AS is, that's for her to tell me, if she feels like it.

We have a prim barbarism alright.

* almost too fascinating

eta third edit

 

[iona]

Interesting. I think the only potentially controversial bit is the idea that gender is innate. Can you understand why, for women in particular, there's a reluctance to accept this without sufficient scientific evidence, given that the idea of innate psychological/behavioural differences between the sexes (and the content of some of those differences) has long been a tool for the oppression of women?

Personally, as a man, it's less of an issue for me, so I'm happy to subscribe to a model where gender identity = gender (not least of all because the harm to trans purple that can arise from not doing so). But, unlike too many trans people, I wouldn't seek to stop women having the discussion.

Like I said, I'm not an expert.

Of course I can understand resistance given the history you mention, but it seems to me that's also largely down to confusion between gender identity, expression and roles/stereotypes. Trans women (or men) aren't saying they think, feel or act a certain way because they're women (or men).

 

[Mungy]

I struggle expressing my thoughts properly. So please forgive me if this gets a bit jumbled up, or doesn't quite make sense it's not intentional.

As the only openly transwoman in a fb group, I am often asked, raher indirectly about what it feels like to be a woman. I know I don't have to answer, but to not answer would be rude and ignorant. Sometimes people make comments about transwoman that my lived experience says is not correct, again I don't have to engage, but if I don't give them a real life viewpoint, they may hold my silence as conformation, or as there are no dissenting voices, that they are bang on the money.

We transpeople are a minority. People don't listen to us, even when we tell our truth, some will still insist we are the gender we were assigned at birth, we have some kind of mental problem, you can always tell who is trans and who isn't that we never "pass", that we are perverts, that we are stereotypes and hold back society becoming genderless. Our voices are small, we are made to feel small by the low level drip drip of tiny drops of transphobic rhetoric we face day to day. Even people trying to be helpful, we can't shine a light on it to make everything clear so you can understand us, what we go through each day, what we compartmentalise each day.

I read a post on the fb i am part of, in response to a video I put up of a transman clearly delighted with his constructed penis, I could see the sheer happiness of being in his face, the same joy I felt when I realised I wasn't a freak, but trans. The comment was "She hasn't got a penis, that just a bit of thigh muscle rolled up" That was just fucking horrible to read the first time, it's horrible to read now and horrible to post. I'm sure he knows it's just leg muscle, he has the scars to prove it, but he will bury that, compartmentalise it, come to terms with it in some way that he has a penis and can have a normal life as a man - standing up at peeing was high on his list, if I remember right.

We do just want to be accepted be that as trans*, as woman, as a man, as whatever we are. We want a bit of respect and dignity and to live our lives as part of society.

I had more to say, but i think I made the points I wanted to without the extra words.

 

[Athos]

Like I said, I'm not an expert.

Of course I can understand resistance given the history you mention, but it seems to me that's also largely down to confusion between gender identity, expression and roles/stereotypes. Trans women (or men) aren't saying they think, feel or act a certain way because they're women (or men).

No, I realise you're not saying that trans people are saying that. I think it's more about that being a consequence of the idea that gender is innate.

 

[Jonti]

nt

 

[Clair De Lune]

That was a really good post iona

 

[killer b]

My gender is nerd. But it's my own personal nerd, so it fits me perfectly. I think sex is just what's between my legs, it doesn't limit me in any way.

I've no idea what gender AS is, that's for her to tell me, if she feels like it.

We have a prim barbarism alright.

It was shit first time round.

 

[Jonti]

For me, when you explain that being trans has nothing to do with gender expression it leaves me feeling totally clueless about what trans does mean. That's a bit difficult for me, the fact that I just don't get it, but doesn't make it your job to satisfy my curiosity and explain things to me so that i can feel like I do fully understand.

I would like to know though, does it matter to you either way whether I (cis person) understand what it means to be trans - or does it actually only matter that I respect you as a person and treat you how you wish to be treated ?

Challenging.

 

[iona]

No, I realise you're not saying that trans people are saying that. I think it's more about that being a consequence of the idea that gender is innate.

Well it doesn't have to be.

We all just need to stop policing gender roles and oppressing people, then it wouldn't even be an issue. Simple.

 

[trashpony]

That was a really good post iona

It was. Thank you iona

 

[Jonti]

It was shit first time round.

Just thinking aloud.

 

[Jonti]

Because it's a minefield using the term.

Still laughing. Poor FP

Whatever happened...

Think I might have found a minefield

 

[Athos]

Well it doesn't have to be.

That's wishing away sexism. Not sure it's that simple, sadly.

We all just need to stop policing gender roles and oppressing people, then it wouldn't even be an issue. Simple.

But this I agree.

 

[Sea Star]

just to say - I'm more than happy to talk about this stuff one to one with anyone on these boards. Even Athos.

But I'm not prepared to sit here on a public forum and be a target for anyone to have a go.

 

[Sea Star]

.

 

[Athos]

just to say - I'm more than happy to talk about this stuff one to one with anyone on these boards. Even Athos.

And I'm sure that if we did chat in real life, you'd see I'm not the bogey-terf you've built me up to be.

Enjoy the rest of Bi Visibility day.

 

[Voley]

I'm not the poster you quoted but I can give another trans person's perspective on this if you're interested.

I'm not a ... whatever kind of scientist looks at this stuff (?) I'm not one of them so I don't know if this is right, but something that made a lot of sense to me when I read it in a discussion was the idea that gender ROLES etc are a social construct, but having some kind of internal gender identity is inate. (I think that was touched on earlier in the thread, a suggestion that there's a genetic element?). As a side note, I do wonder whether it's even possible to get rid of gender roles etc completely or whether the best we can hope for is stereotypes that are much less harmful, not linked to oppression etc and not enforced.

So anyway, you have your internal gender identity which is who you are; gender roles which is what society says [gender] should do; and gender expression which is how you express your identity through manipulation of the roles available. They're not entirely separate things, but gender expression and identity aren't linked in a simple, x=y way.

To give a personal example, I didn't choose to transition so I can lift weights and do martial arts and have short hair. I could, and did, do all of those things as a (often gnc) woman. Being masculine or feminine wasn't the problem - being a woman was the problem, for me. I chose to transition because my body on testosterone is so, so right and wonderful and having breasts is just wrong. I chose to transition because as far back as age 4 I remember looking at the boys, or later men, and having a feeling that I should be there. Not because of anything they were doing, just a certainty that I should be in that group too.

There's a thousand little things I could list and none of them are specifically what determines my gender, but they all add up to a bigger picture.

Some of the "masculine" stuff I do is unconscious; I just do it without thinking and always have done. Some is a choice but unrelated to gender expression; I do it because I want to, not because it makes me male or female. Some is a choice and related to gender expression; I do it because it's easier, or I don't want to draw attention to myself at that moment, or to avoid being read as female.
Same with "feminine" things. Some are unconscious; I just do them without thinking. Some are intentional; I do them because it's who I am or what I want to do. Some I do intentionally because fuck nonsense gender bullshit.

Cis people do the same thing. We can all choose how and to what extent we use gender expression & roles/stereotypes to express our gender. They only express gender though, not determine it.

This is a great post. Really helpful, iona. I know nothing about trans issues and that's really helped, thanks.

 

[Jonti]

Challenging.

fucking hell

 

[smokedout]

I said that we have a responsibility to take into account the potential harm of treatment which means the attempt to understand is necessary. That would also be the case for not intervening.

The early evidence shows using hormone blockers has a good outcome: Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment | Articles | Pediatrics
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958
A bigger study is in progress.

 

[trashpony]

The early evidence shows using hormone blockers has a good outcome: Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment | Articles | Pediatrics
A bigger study is in progress.

And what about the physical outcome?

 

[pengaleng]

can someone give minutes of the last 30 pages please?

 

[trashpony]

can someone give minutes of the last 30 pages please?

I said I was worried about the lifelong impact of drugs on children. Stella ranted on the basis of things I hadn't said and hasn't apologised. iona made a cracking post explaining gender dysphoria to those of us who don't experience it. There was a fair bit of shouting. Stella told us she hated everyone but kept coming back again to say 'and another thing!'

So normal urban

 

[smokedout]

And what about the physical outcome?

Been used for a long time to treat other conditions, considered safe, some concerns about bone density but latest research seems to indicate not a problem:

Full-blown puberty is irreversible, but for transgender children, it’s no longer inevitable. By taking a gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist, secretion of the sex hormones can be stopped and the onset of puberty suppressed, so that the body does not develop secondary sex characteristics. This has been done safely for decades to suppress sex hormones in children who develop too early, a condition known as precocious puberty. Suppressors have also been used to treat endometriosis, uterine fibroids and prostate cancer.

It was only in 2008 that the Endocrine Society approved puberty suppressors as a treatment for transgender adolescents as young as 12 years old. The Society, with members in more than 100 countries, has since declared that the intervention appears to be safe and effective. In 2011 the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), also issued Standards of Care for the treatment of patients with gender dysphoria, which include puberty suppression.

There are few reported side effects to this off-label use of sex hormone suppressors. Despite early concerns that blocking sex hormones might harm bone development, a recent study from the Netherlands found no evidence of long-term effects on bone mineral density. If the suppressors are halted, puberty resumes as if there had been no treatment.

Puberty blockers may improve the mental health of transgender adolescents

 

[pengaleng]

this touches on most of the things if yer bored and wanna watch a lecture

it's good

 

[Red Cat]

The early evidence shows using hormone blockers has a good outcome: Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment | Articles | Pediatrics
A bigger study is in progress.

Thanks for the links.

I haven't actually argued for or against any kind of treatment on this thread. I was saying that however uncomfortable it may be when there is an attempt by others to understand there is a social responsibility to attempt that when the issue is about medical treatment, particularly medical treatment for children. That includes the evidence.

 

[Red Cat]

this touches on most of the things if yer bored and wanna watch a lecture

it's good

Thanks, that looks very interesting, just watched the first 5 mins, will watch the rest later.

 

[Jonti]

Just to make a random comment

 

[SpookyFrank]

I said I was worried about the lifelong impact of drugs on children. Stella ranted on the basis of things I hadn't said and hasn't apologised. iona made a cracking post explaining gender dysphoria to those of us who don't experience it. There was a fair bit of shouting. Stella told us she hated everyone but kept coming back again to say 'and another thing!'

So normal urban

What about the impact of capitalism on kids, or ubiquitous social media, or our increasingly demented school system? We're happy to inflict all that shit on kids with no real understanding of the long term effects and, unlike with puberty blocking drugs, no choice on the part of the child.

 

[Red Cat]

Just to make a random comment

Is that in response to me? I was acknowledging it looked interesting based on the few minutes I watched, but I'm getting my youngest to bed atm.