Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[iona]

You've completely missed the point of what I was saying. I wasn't saying that I'm confused, but that the language surrounding these issues is a source of much of the confusion in debates.

The same could be said for debates about any subject if someone isn't that familiar with it though, couldn't it?

I'm not sure what the alternative is - it would be a hell of a lot more confusing without the words to talk about this stuff, surely.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The same could be said for debates about any subject if someone isn't that familiar with it though, couldn't it?

I'm not sure what the alternative is - it would be a hell of a lot more confusing without the words to talk about this stuff, surely.

In this particular debate, I see confusion and people talking past one another as some are talking about biological sex and others culturally acquired gender, and without realising the two end up in an argument where the main problem is that they aren't using words in the same way. Our language isn't clear on it - has the same words such as 'he/she' for both biological sex and culturally acquired gender, for instance - probably because a lot of people don't really keep a clear distinction in their heads between the two most of the time.

I'm not suggesting an alternative, necessarily (language is public, not private - we don't get to go humpty dumpty on it and use words as we like), merely that it is a thing to be aware of in order to avoid misunderstandings.

 

[sunnysidedown]

Does menstruation have a place in this discussion?

And if so, is there a particular/accepted trans position on/about this?

 

[Jonti]

Does menstruation have a place in this discussion?

And if so, is there a particular/accepted trans position on/about this?

For the first, I would say as a feminist man, yes of course. Just having a womb makes you a target for some kinds of male oppression. I think this is a position that marxist feminists would agree on.

I'm not calling myself a marxist (in any case I'm content to self identify as feminist) because the extent of my reading of the fellow extends to the Communist Manifisto, and, with Engels, The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State. Just a couple of slim volumes that I read as a schoolboy that convinced me of my politics, allowing me to stay with my chief interests (then maths and science). In a heavy marxist debate there is no doubt I would make howlers.

For the second, no, not really, though the trans chauvinists would be pretty vocal in insisting otherwise. But they are a handful of individuals, not 'transgender' as an entire concept.

 

[weepiper]

No. They wouldn't. Not if you didn;t say you were a boy or wanted to be a boy and insisted on it consistently over a long period of time. This is such a straw man!

The reality is trans kids in general have to fight to be recognised as their true gender and most (probably) don't the chance until adulthood by which time they've suffered their way through a puberty they did want and survived their teenage years, often suicidal, almost certainly suffering some sort of mental illness before they reach adult hood.

I speak from experience.

And this is what I mean by people talking out of their arses and just not listening to what trans people are saying.

I told my mum repeatedly in primary school that I hated being a girl and I wished I had been born a boy. If anyone had suggested there was a possibility of that I'd have leapt on it but no-one ever did. But you know, I'm just talking out my arse so what does it matter.

 

[Sea Star]

I told my mum repeatedly in primary school that I hated being a girl and I wished I had been born a boy. If anyone had suggested there was a possibility of that I'd have leapt on it but no-one ever did. But you know, I'm just talking out my arse so what does it matter.

You're suggesting that you'd be forcibly transitioned which is a position used to deny trans people the right to transition.
What do you think would happen? You'd be forced onto hormones and sex changed before you could change your mind?

You're talking out of your arse because you know nothing about how trans children are actually treated.

Stop playing the victim here.

Also even if it was a real risk, why do you think the risk that you might have been forced into boyhood trumps the reality of thousands of women like me who were forced into boyhood because actually it's trans voices who are forcibly silenced.

 

[Sea Star]

In this particular debate, I see confusion and people talking past one another as some are talking about biological sex and others culturally acquired gender, and without realising the two end up in an argument where the main problem is that they aren't using words in the same way. Our language isn't clear on it - has the same words such as 'he/she' for both biological sex and culturally acquired gender, for instance - probably because a lot of people don't really keep a clear distinction in their heads between the two most of the time.

I'm not suggesting an alternative, necessarily (language is public, not private - we don't get to go humpty dumpty on it and use words as we like), merely that it is a thing to be aware of in order to avoid misunderstandings.

Yeah, and. If a trans person attempts to define anything we get absolutely torn apart. We're not allowed to even agree terms.

 

[weepiper]

You're suggesting that you'd be forcibly transitioned which is a position used to deny trans project the right to transition.
What do you think would happen? You'd be forced into hormones and sex changed before you could change your mind?

You're talking out of your arse because you know nothing about how trans children are actually treated.

Stop playing the victim here.

No I'm not. This is why no-one bothers to engage with you past a certain point, you wilfully misread people and overreact to things they haven't even said. I'm not going to bother any more either.

 

[Sea Star]

No I'm not. This is why no-one bothers to engage with you past a certain point, you wilfully misread people and overreact to things they haven't even said. I'm not going to bother any more either.

Petulant

 

[Sea Star]

People need to stop being so sensitive. If theyre going to post obvious crap I'm going to call them out. I have to put up with being called a fetishistic male, so saying some one is talking out of their arse on trans issues is not a biggie.

 

[Sea Star]

No I'm not. This is why no-one bothers to engage with you past a certain point, you wilfully misread people and overreact to things they haven't even said. I'm not going to bother any more either.

I haven't willfully misread anything you said. Try being clearer?

Try answering my points. Can you not see why I had a problem with what you said?

 

[Jonti]

I might come back to this. It's a contested view. This article by Frans de Waal outlines bonobo behaviour and indicates something close to your idea. It still doesn't quite involve 'complete equality', but it certainly isn't male domination, very far from it, despite the fact that male bonobos are bigger than females. I like de Waal's suggestion that a way to understand our past may involve a three-way comparison between humans, bonobos and chimps. But he also includes an important point, which is that bonobos evolved in a very specific place, a sheltered and almost idyllic place for such a primate to live. The history of pre-agricultural humans is one of movement right across the world - you don't migrate from an idyll.

Thanks for that read. A quick note of a few differences between bonobos and us. I'm sure you'll be able to add to the list, if you consider I've missed anything salient.

* sex acts in our species are private affairs
* women's sexual receptivity and fertility is not advertised in our species
* we pair bond, and the male invests in his children and their mother (rather unusual to find this in mammals)

 

[Sea Star]

I don't think that worked :-/

 

[Sea Star]

 

[butchersapron]

She's laughing at the suggestion of getting someone half her age in headlock and lifting them up - not her saying that she did. And as posted earlier, the slowed down video shows exactly what happened. No smoking gun here i'm afraid.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Thanks for that read. A quick note of a few differences between bonobos and us. I'm sure you'll be able to add to the list, if you consider I've missed anything salient.

* sex acts in our species are private affairs
* women's sexual receptivity and fertility is not advertised in our species
* we pair bond, and the male invests in his children and their mother (rather unusual to find this in biology)

Of those three, I'd say the last is hugely important. The only other ape that pair-bonds is the gibbon, but gibbon males and females are the same size, which is what you normally find in animals that pair-bond, so we're doubly unusual in that respect. Humans are very likely to have evolved pair bonding from some situation along the line back to our common ancestor with bonobos/chimps where it was not the case, and we're not as strict about it as gibbons, even now. This study suggests that pair-bonding in primates evolved as a means to prevent male infanticide. I'm always a little wary of studies that run models in case the assumptions of the models are off in some small but crucial way, but it's an interesting finding. The evolution of monogamy is quite a thorny issue, generally.

Another difference would be division of labour. It was once thought that bonobos didn't hunt in the way chimps do. It's now known that they do hunt, but unlike chimps, bonobos hunt in mixed-sex groups. There is very little division of labour by sex role in bonobos.

 

[Jonti]

The division of labour, yes I was thinking that while out for my morning walk. Who obtained the skins, who chewed the skins, who made the needles, who used the needles. Gender roles, in our ancestors at some stage, but now ones that anyone could turn to. We're flexible enough to socially construct gender roles, something of an advantage without doubt. Our biological sex does not limit us.

I find the comparison with language interesting. Obviously English is socially constructed, but our biology impels us to create some language. Similarly gender is socially constructed, but everyone has to have one ~ it's just that everyone has their very own. It's part of the personhood of Homo sapiens.

 

[Jonti]

I told my mum repeatedly in primary school that I hated being a girl and I wished I had been born a boy. If anyone had suggested there was a possibility of that I'd have leapt on it but no-one ever did. But you know, I'm just talking out my arse so what does it matter.

I've been thinking there must be many people here who experienced gender dysphoria in childhood who found it resolved itself at adolescence. According to the Endocrine Society this happens 75% to 80% of the time, here.

I don't like to ask personal questions (nor to answer them!) but I'm interested in your experience. You were not comfortable in your skin as a child. Would you say that now you are, and if so, what was it like to go from gp to cis in your adolescence ? How was it for you?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You're suggesting that you'd be forcibly transitioned

No. Weepiper at no point said that.

 

[Wilf]

She's laughing at the suggestion of getting someone half her age in headlock and lifting them up - not her saying that she did. And as posted earlier, the slowed down video shows exactly what happened. No smoking gun here i'm afraid.

Yep, people can argue what they want about the underlying politics, but what actually happened in the camera-smashy-scuffle is pretty clear.

 

[19force8]

She's laughing at the suggestion of getting someone half her age in headlock and lifting them up - not her saying that she did. And as posted earlier, the slowed down video shows exactly what happened. No smoking gun here i'm afraid.

Whilst there might not have been a headlock it certainly looked to me like someone had been grabbed and either held down or was squirming to get away. How you'd spot the difference in the heat of the moment I don't know. [E2A without the benefit of 1/4 speed replay too ]

Also, she says she kicked someone she thought was a woman and now wishes she'd kicked the runt harder, ie someone smaller than her. On the whole her tone is triumphalist and not remarkably different from the violence she complains of.

 

[smokedout]

I told my mum repeatedly in primary school that I hated being a girl and I wished I had been born a boy. If anyone had suggested there was a possibility of that I'd have leapt on it but no-one ever did. But you know, I'm just talking out my arse so what does it matter.

Did you experience any of these symptoms?

Gender dysphoria behaviours in children can include:

• insisting they're of the opposite sex
• disliking or refusing to wear clothes that are typically worn by their sex and wanting to wear clothes typically worn by the opposite sex
• disliking or refusing to take part in activities and games that are typically associated with their sex, and wanting to take part in activities and games typically associated with the opposite sex
• preferring to play with children of the opposite biological sex
• disliking or refusing to pass urine as other members of their biological sex usually do – for example, a boy may want to sit down to pass urine and a girl may want to stand up
• insisting or hoping their genitals will change – for example, a boy may say he wants to be rid of his penis, and a girl may want to grow a penis

• feeling extreme distress at the physical changes of puberty
• 
  
• Children with gender dysphoria may display some, or all, of these behaviours. However, in many cases, behaviours such as these are just a part of childhood and don't necessarily mean your child has gender dysphoria.
  
  For example, many girls behave in a way that can be described as "tomboyish", which is often seen as part of normal female development. It's also not uncommon for boys to roleplay as girls and to dress up in their mother's or sister's clothes. This is usually just a phase.
  
  Most children who behave in these ways don't have gender dysphoria and don't become transsexuals. Only in rare cases does the behaviour persist into the teenage years and adulthood.
  
  Teenagers and adults
  If the feelings of gender dysphoria are still present by the time your child is a teenager or adult, it's likely that they're not just going through a phase.
  
  If you're a teenager or an adult whose feelings of gender dysphoria begun in childhood, you may now have a much clearer sense of your gender identity and how you want to deal with it. Many people with strong feelings of gender dysphoria are fully transsexual during their teenage years.
  
  The way gender dysphoria affects teenagers and adults is different to the way it affects children. If you're a teenager or adult with gender dysphoria, you may feel:
  
  • without doubt that your gender identity is at odds with your biological sex
  • comfortable only when in the gender role of your preferred gender identity
  • a strong desire to hide or be rid of the physical signs of your sex, such as breasts, body hair or muscle definition
  • a strong dislike for – and a strong desire to change or be rid of – the genitalia of your biological sex

It requires a little more than a temporary period of cross gender activity before a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is reached.

Gender dysphoria - Symptoms - NHS Choices

 

[cantsin]

Why do you need to explain what cis is?

you spent the whole of your previous post laboriously re-emphasising just how confusing all this is to poor ol' you, now you're questioning why Stella needs to explain CiS ?

your confusion's getting confusing now eh, perplexing stuff.

baffled, me.

 

[Jonti]

Because it's a minefield using the term.

Still laughing. Poor FP

Whatever happened...

 

[Thimble Queen]

I told my mum repeatedly in primary school that I hated being a girl and I wished I had been born a boy. If anyone had suggested there was a possibility of that I'd have leapt on it but no-one ever did. But you know, I'm just talking out my arse so what does it matter.

Lots of children go through that. That's within the realms of 'normal' childhood experience. Dysphoria and being trans, and being recognised as such, is quite a way from that.

 

[weepiper]

Did you experience any of these symptoms?


It requires a little more than a temporary period of cross gender activity before a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is reached.

Gender dysphoria - Symptoms - NHS Choices

Yes, several, for years, in fact some of them I still experience now. I am getting quite offended at having my actual genuine lived experience dismissed as 'temporary cross gender activity' and 'obvious crap' and 'talking out of my arse', tbh. Fuck trying to have a proper conversation about this here.

 

[bimble]

I've got a cousin in America whose youngest child (now 16) just went back to 'being' a girl after two years of presenting as and being called a boy's name etc at their request. I am not close with them as a family and I don't know if they (my 1st cousin once removed?) have reverted / relented because of family pressure or because they just changed their mind. A couple of months ago they were a boy at school and a girl at home (two names and everything) , that must have been a very strange life. I'm not even sure if i have a point to make here tbh just an anecdote really.

 

[smokedout]

Yes, several, for years, in fact some of them I still experience now. I am getting quite offended at having my actual genuine lived experience dismissed as 'temporary cross gender activity' and 'obvious crap' and 'talking out of my arse', tbh. Fuck trying to have a proper conversation about this here.

I didn't say you were talking crap. But you're insistence that people would these days insist you were trans and presumably force you to be a boy is a bit of a straw man. Perhaps you might have been given some counselling about your gender identity, or have been permitted to express yourself differently, but the notion that children are somehow groomed into being transsexual by a medical establishment that is unaware of the feelings you describe and how and why they manifest is just not true.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Whilst there might not have been a headlock it certainly looked to me like someone had been grabbed and either held down or was squirming to get away. How you'd spot the difference in the heat of the moment I don't know. [E2A without the benefit of 1/4 speed replay too ]

Also, she says she kicked someone she thought was a woman and now wishes she'd kicked the runt harder, ie someone smaller than her. On the whole her tone is triumphalist and not remarkably different from the violence she complains of.

It's a bit pointless going over that again but she resisted having her camera grabbed. She fought back, and no doubt grabbed the other person at one point - it was a bit of a grapple before the punches started flying. Not sure the road to go down is to criticise her tone now given that, whatever the details, there is no getting away from the fact that she was the one attacked and beaten up.

 

[Sweet FA]

Fucking hell, I'm not surprised weepiper's pissed off. She said "I told my mum repeatedly in primary school that I hated being a girl and I wished I had been born a boy. If anyone had suggested there was a possibility of that I'd have leapt on it".

smokedout, where is the: "insistence that people would these days insist you were trans and presumably force you to be a boy"?