Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[pengaleng]

you should do a poll and see what people think before making the request

 

[Sea Star]

I don't think the problems with this thread are a product of it being in the wrong forum. Not do I think it should have gone in an LGBT+ thread had one existed; it's very much politics and current affairs.

no, but there's a lot else I'd like to say about this but I'm not going to say it here.

 

[Athos]

Always room for crossover

Maybe. But, taking this topic, for example: would there be two threads, one in each forum? Would that help a coherent discussion?

 

[Athos]

no, but there's a lot else I'd like to say about this but I'm not going to say it here.

I understand why, but it seems a shame that the broarder discussion would lose a trans perspective (even if I disagree with much of what you say).

 

[krtek a houby]

Maybe. But, taking this topic, for example: would there be two threads, one in each forum? Would that help a coherent discussion?

Coherent discussions should not be limited to just one perspective. Hence, possibly, another outlook on another forum?

 

[Athos]

Coherent discussions should not be limited to just one perspective. Hence, possibly, another outlook on another forum?

Retreating from the broader discussion is decreasing the number of perspectives, there, surely?

 

[krtek a houby]

Retreating from the broader discussion is decreasing the number of perspectives, there, surely?

Not at all. Merely opening up other avenues of discussion.

It's hardly

 

[Athos]

Not at all. Merely opening up other avenues of discussion.

It's hardly

Possibly. But I fear you'd just get two groups in silo, talking to themselves, with no exposure to a diversity of opinions. It could become polarising and counter- productive.

 

[pengaleng]

it could be but lets face it, people avoid politics forum like the plague init so you already miss out on opinions

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

So "the left" are supportive of "self-entitled, rapey, violent misogynists" now?

Yes. Same as they have always been.

Like where the fuck have you been if you dont realise that the left are frequently supportive of self-entitled rapey violent misogynists. How can you have missed Smith, Sheridan, Galloway, Assange? Women were imprisoned for decades London in a cult that originated on the left at the same time that Health was raping and beating up women and while the Pedophile Information Exchange were gaining a level of left wing traction (and was only stopped by exactly the same flavour of feminists that were gathering in Hyde Park - at the time they were denounced as anti-Gay, despite many of them being lesbian).

Cis-women are being told "listen to trans women" which is completely fair enough and more radfems should. But it has to be the right kind of trans woman, cos if you want to listen to the wrong kind of trans woman, you are a "FUCKING TRANSPHOBE" who deserves to be punched, should suck girl dick, and die in a fire.

 

[krtek a houby]

Possibly. But I fear you'd just get two groups in silo, talking to themselves, with no exposure to a diversity of opinions. It could become polarising and counter- productive.

Or it might just offer up some new ideas and patterns that are oft squashed/scared off by the usual constraints of a single forum.

 

[Athos]

it could be but lets face it, people avoid politics forum like the plague init so you already miss out on opinions

fair point!

 

[Athos]

Or it might just offer up some new ideas and patterns that are oft squashed/scared off by the usual constraints of a single forum.

Maybe, but to whom would they be offered up?

 

[Sea Star]

Retreating from the broader discussion is decreasing the number of perspectives, there, surely?

Who's retreating? I just don't want to have my face rubbed in the shit every time I discuss the issues that affect me.

Talking about my own identity shouldn't have to be combative every time. I don't see it as political - any more than being gay or being straight is political. sure there are political aspects, but - do you know how many times a day I have to explain what cis means?

 

[Sea Star]

I always get the impression that the left doesn't like minorities talking among themselves and always want to keep a nice beady eye on us to make sure we're not departing from acceptable dogma.

 

[Sea Star]

being tone policed as well! sometimes I want to be able to get angry without being accused of being a man for it.

 

[pengaleng]

new york forum is pretty bullshit... its only got 478 discussions

 

[Athos]

Who's retreating? I just don't want to have my face rubbed in the shit every time I discuss the issues that affect me.

Talking about my own identity shouldn't have to be combative every time. I don't see it as political - any more than being gay or being straight is political. sure there are political aspects, but - do you know how many times a day I have to explain what cis means?

Fair enough, I get that. That's why I started my previous reply to you by saying that I understand why you would.

I think we fundamentally disagree about what is and what isn't political, though. Your identity impacts on the question of what gender is; that's something that affects all of us. I don't think it's quite as simple as it being a purely individual thing.

 

[Athos]

I always get the impression that the left doesn't like minorities talking among themselves and always want to keep a nice beady eye on us to make sure we're not departing from acceptable dogma.

The saddest thing about that is that it seems to presume that minorities are outside the left.

 

[Sea Star]

The saddest thing about that is that it seems to presume that minorities are outside the left.

I feel pushed out.

 

[Sea Star]

Fair enough, I get that. That's why I started my previous reply to you by saying that I understand why you would.

I think we fundamentally disagree about what is and what isn't political, though. Your identity impacts on the question of what gender is; that's something that affects all of us. I don't think it's quite as simple as it being a purely individual thing.

I think that's why we fell out in the first place. You think someone who experiences being trans from age of 4 and fighting to just exist and not be forced to be someone they are not is political. the only political thing is the push back. Transphobia is political, transgender isn't. My view only though, I know lots of trans people wouldn't agree with me here. I deeply, deeply would love to get beyond my trans identity, to never have to talk about it again, but it's the thing I'm eternally judged on whether I want to be or not, it's the thing that I get asked to talk about, to do work about. I used to do other stuff but you'd be amazed how many people don't return your phone calls when you transition.

 

[Athos]

I feel pushed out.

Don't take this the wrong way, but, sometimes - understandably given the grief you've received over the years - you seem to interpret things as attacks when they're not intended that way. Obviously, I can understand why you are personally vested in discussions about gender, and find some views upsetting. But not every opinion you don't like is someone having a pop.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Talking about my own identity shouldn't have to be combative every time.

That is exactly how many AFAB women feel.

 

[Athos]

I think that's why we fell out in the first place. You think someone who experiences being trans from age of 4 and fighting to just exist and not be forced to be someone they are not is political. the only political thing is the push back. Transphobia is political, transgender isn't. My view only though, I know lots of trans people wouldn't agree with me here. I deeply, deeply would love to get beyond my trans identity, to never have to talk about it again, but it's the thing I'm eternally judged on whether I want to be or not, it's the thing that I get asked to talk about, to do work about. I used to do other stuff but you'd be amazed how many people don't return your phone calls when you transition.

Yes. And partly because I was crass and unkind at times. But I just don't know how to get past the impasse of political v personal, other than by listening to one another.

 

[Sea Star]

That is exactly how many AFAB women feel.

Sorry - didn't mean to be abrupt - but I have so much going on right now - was interrupted.

I'm not sure how you mean. Yes I do understand that women feel like this. I am a woman too as well trans so I do understand, and I have many cis allies that I discuss stuff with.

I'm just not sure how to take your post - expressing empathy or having a go. If I knew I could respond better.

 

[Sea Star]

Yes. And partly because I was crass and unkind at times. But I just don't know how to get past the impasse of political v personal, other than by listening to one another.

can't we do both? As I said, I have no intention of retreating. I've been trying to find a way back in to politics for a number of years now that doesn't involve me becoming a bloody trans token/ political football.

 

[Shechemite]

I always get the impression that the left doesn't like minorities talking among themselves and always want to keep a nice beady eye on us to make sure we're not departing from acceptable dogma.

Irony

 

[Athos]

can't we do both? As I said, I have no intention of retreating. I've been trying to find a way back in to politics for a number of years now that doesn't involve me becoming a bloody trans token/ political football.

Sorry, I don't follow.

 

[Sea Star]

Irony

there's a reason I've been ignoring you.

 

[krink]

I've followed this thread from the start and I have a question if I may. What do posters mean by "the left" in this thread? I consider myself a lefty but I'm not prejudiced against minorities of any description or any of that stuff. In a thread about the importance of identity, surely blanket and meaningless terms like "the left" are useless and the posters should be more specific. Anyway, back to lurking.