Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[cantsin]

Without addressing any substantive points (I have nothing useful to contribute) it is interesting how Trans has become a 'wedge issue' around which certain political coalitions (including often quite surprising instances of allyship) can form. As Jed pointed out earlier, there is a lot of crossover between anti-left, Blairite revivalists and anti-trans activism. The second thing is that other things are going on here - there is simply too much of a focus on bathrooms, disproportionate to how widespread the phenomenon is. This is a vehicle for wider anxieties. A moral panic around which political coalitions can form. I think we should be suspicious of the resurgence of 'it's biology, stupid' type thinking - the need to find an 'objective' or 'scientific' basis for socio-cultural categories leads nowhere good.

yep, I noticed that one of the obsessive, virulent omni-present anti left / anti Corbyn mouthpieces on Twitter ( J Holyoake - not a real name IIRC, so no doxxing ) has gone all out Terf now.

 

[Shechemite]

whys everyone going yes to me about that comment

Because you're stating the obvious,and missing the point

 

[pengaleng]

Because you're stating the obvious,and missing the point

oh I am? care to elaborate on the point?

 

[Shechemite]

oh I am?

Yes

 

[pengaleng]

Yes

i got well no time for this game, spit it out.

/8 mins...

no point I am missing is forthcoming, so I can only assume yer chatting shit.
glad to see the point you were highlighting is this unimportant.

 

[innit]

i got well no time for this game, spit it out.

/8 mins...

no point I am missing is forthcoming, so I can only assume yer chatting shit.
glad to see the point you were highlighting is this unimportant.

Is it infantilising or a reference to the fact she's old enough to be their mother / probably about the same age as their mothers?

Eta this is only a comment on the "over my knee" remark, I'm not supporting anything she did or said.

 

[pengaleng]

I aint got a fucking clue and I have lost the will to care about this old bitch.

let em fight to the death.

 

[Sea Star]

and I've actually met Miranda... sat down and had coffee with miranda << in me hard denial phase lol

I cant really say owt about me feelings of em on here tho init

I was advised to decline when she asked me for a sit down. We used to chat on Twitter in my very early days. Only got nasty after I stopped accepting what she was saying uncritically.
I know a few people who have met her. They all say exactly the same thing.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Your present example is also you pointing at/observing others, over there, not you. I was wondering whether you can think of any ways you personally have to interact with and challenge or navigate this stuff. I think half of the reason conversations like this blow up is because there is a lot of what seems like telling others what they are doing wrong. Rather than giving personal examples of how one is also having to navigate these issues.

I need to experience being a feminist getting twatted before I get to condemn it? Does this bizarre rule apply to yourself on other threads?

 

[pengaleng]

I was advised to decline when she asked me for a sit down. We used to chat on Twitter in my very early days. Only got nasty after I stopped accepting what she was saying uncritically.
I know a few people who have met her. They all say exactly the same thing.

yeah I just distanced meself, never had them be nasty to me

I observe people so it was interesting, I think if you're a weak personality it'd affect more

 

[Sea Star]

tbf I quite liked that bit. Given that she's just been beaten up, that seems a pretty good response to me. I like her gumption. I just detest her ideas.

I used to have admiration for a few TERFs prior to transitioning, including ones I knew via Twitter and chatted to. It was only after I stated i identified as a woman - and not to them, just on my feed, that I found out that trans exclusionary feminism was a thing and that a mere statement of my personal identity could upset so many people.

I remember one woman I thought was my friend - before she blocked me and my cis female flatmate who defended me, told me I was playing at being a woman and that I was a walking gender stereotype.

Really upset me at the time - and the beginnings of me having my TERF awakening.

 

[Sea Star]

yeah I just distanced meself, never had them be nasty to me

I observe people so it was interesting, I think if you're a weak personality it'd affect more

I was just lacking in confidence then and I think that I was being protected by my allies because they knew what was going to happen. I'd happily meet MY now on an equal basis but she wouldn't want to meet me unless the odds were heavily stacked against me I don't think.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I need to experience being a feminist getting twatted before I get to condemn it? Does this bizarre rule apply to yourself on other threads?

Where the fuck have I written that?

I was asking you to be you and talk about you with regard ID politics and how they do or don't manifest in your own life. Have you seen or felt the state manipulating them in the ways that you observed with the gay pride or Black Panther examples you gave?

Fucking hell...seriously...if you don't want to say just don't but don't be a prick in the way you misrepresent what I am saying please.

 

[pengaleng]

oh fyi i call miranda them cus it's how they like it, it aint a cuss

and when I met M it was early denial doors, so we didnt talk about me

 

[Shechemite]

i got well no time for this game, spit it out.

/8 mins...

no point I am missing is forthcoming, so I can only assume yer chatting shit.
glad to see the point you were highlighting is this unimportant.

30 minutes actually, but I do have other things to do. I thought you said you 'don't have time for this shit'.

Anyhow... you stating that she was 'infantalising' the activists is stating the obvious.

I imagine she knows her comment was infantalising, as the chaps who attacked her acting like tantruming children. Which er, was her point.

 

[Sea Star]

oh fyi i call miranda them cus it's how they like it, it aint a cuss

and when I met M it was early denial doors, so we didnt talk about me

I'm confused about that because I read something she said recently where she doesn't care what pronouns people use, but she never stated a preference in that article. Besides she regularly misgenders me and calls me "Norm" so not sure I care a lot in her case.

But I might switch to them/their now though.

 

[Sea Star]

the chaps who attacked her acting like tantruming children. Which er, was her point.

I saw no chaps involved. And the person in the headlock being attacked by Maria was afab.

 

[pengaleng]

I aint seen anything recently from her tho cus why would I? lol

but thats how it was, I know theyre alright with all the pronouns but prefers they, I know the terfs call her she out of identity respect

 

[pengaleng]

I saw no chaps involved. And the person in the headlock being attacked by Maria was afab.

wouldnt even bothewr with that argument

 

[pengaleng]

30 minutes actually, but I do have other things to do. I thought you said you 'don't have time for this shit'.

Anyhow... you stating that she was 'infantalising' the activists is stating the obvious.

I imagine she knows her comment was infantalising, as the chaps who attacked her acting like tantruming children. Which er, was her point.

go swivel. we have moved the fuck on.

 

[Shechemite]

go swivel. we have moved the fuck on.

Nah, the childishness of the activists is central. Crack on tho

 

[Wilf]

That whole post is pretty unsettling on a number of levels. I can only imagine what it feels like to be on the recieving end of all that stuff, and I don't feel in a position to criticise how those who are on the recieving end choose to respond. Hitting someone was clearly a tactical error, as it's handed a ranting idiot a platfrom, but was it morally wrong? I don't think you should be allowed to talk unlimited amounts of hateful shit and not expect consequences. There is more than one kind of violence.

I agree with that, in principle. Punching someone is never inherently good in my book, but sometimes the stuff that has gone down on the other side of the scales gets close to excusing it. The obvious and extreme example is the fash. Whether MM herself came out with enough to justify this, I don't know i.e. I genuinely don't know, without reading the whole thread again. However taking that line makes it into, literally, an unapologetic twatting (I don't mean you personally are being unapologetic, just that that's the logic of saying it followed from comments, twitter bile or whatever). The person who did the twatting pre-announced it and having had all the various analyses of the video I hope nobody is still saying she was rescuing her mate. It looked like a couple of twenty somethings were up for at least a confrontation and chose to got for someone 30+ years older. Not the worst kicking, but bad enough.

The underlying politics in play here are messy. I think I've liked several posts by people on both sides of this discussion, along with the underlying argument that this is the inevitable consequence of ID politics (something I might have a go at making a proper response on when not at work). My point for now is that whatever side you take on the wider situation, the twatting bit should be recognised for what it is.

 

[Wilf]

I aint got a fucking clue and I have lost the will to care about this old bitch.

let em fight to the death.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Where the fuck have I written that?

I was asking you to be you and talk about you with regard ID politics and how they do or don't manifest in your own life. Have you seen or felt the state manipulating them in the ways that you observed with the gay pride or Black Panther examples you gave?

Fucking hell...seriously...if you don't want to say just don't but don't be a prick in the way you misrepresent what I am saying please.

The best example I can give is the EDL and nationalism generally being attractive to people looking for answers. Anyway, it was suggested that this discussion was off topic so I'm reluctant to continue it here.

 

[andysays]

No, I wasn't trying to "stretch the meaning of trans to include (cis) GNC" people. I was talking about people who are transgender but somehow don't conform to societal expectations wrt gender roles or expression - a trans man who likes wearing makeup and high heels, for example, or a butch trans woman who works as a scaffolder or something.

Re the bit I quoted in bold - think we had different understandings of GNC and that's where the confusion came from? I've always understood & seen GNC used to mean not conforming to roles etc associated with that person's gender, rather than any gender. So a cis woman who conformed to male roles etc would be GNC even though she is conforming to gender roles, because they aren't the roles typically associated with her gender. And the same for trans women (expected to conform to female roles) and trans men (male roles).

E2a I absolutely agree about the importance of not conflating the two, btw.

Thanks for your reply. Now that you have, I think the bit in my post which you highlighted is poorly expressed as doesn't it mean what I intended.

But given the ever more acrimonious way this thread has gone (not from you), I'm no longer interesting in exploring these issues any further here.

 

[Jonti]

Gender dysphoria usually means a difficulty in identifying with the biological sex in an individual.

The causes of gender dysphoria are not fully clear.
...
The Endocrine Society found that 75-80% of children diagnosed with gender dysphoria before they reached puberty did not have the condition after achievement of puberty.
...
The condition affects self-concept and self-esteem and choice of sexual partners. Gender dysphoria is not the same as homosexualism.
...
These (post-op) individuals are protected legally against discrimination.

There's a set of linked articles. A good read.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's a big issue, isn't it? Are we in some way genetically predisposed to search for a gender identity? It's not impossible that we are, in the same way that we're predisposed to look for language and there is now growing evidence that we're predisposed to look for moral concepts like right and wrong.

That author suggests that we are predisposed to look for gender id. I don't know but the seeming ubiquity of gender id in human cultures is certainly consistent with the idea.

 

[19force8]

Trans people die at the hands of men due to being perceived as a class traitor. It's a similar reason gays and lesbians are beaten.

Transwomen are a traitor to their sex class by taking on feminine signifiers of the gender system reserved for the female sex class in order to keep them in a subordinates position so that their reproductive labour can be exploited by patriarchy (a proto capitalist system).

Homosexuality forms the same thing. Homosexuality disrupts the reproduction of the next generation of labourers by throwing a spanner in the works of heteronirmativity. Homosexual men in particular was criminalised because the dominated position of men was weakened by some men taking on subordinate roles I'm sex.

Sex is the material basis that all this shite comes from.

People : Read your Marx and Engels.

I've read a bit of Marx and Engels and don't recall any mention of patriarchy or a sex class. I suspect both are idealist concepts that serve to obscure the material basis for oppression. Which, for a Marxist of course, is the mode of production upon which class society is built.

A Marxist would have an understanding that the gender concepts and roles prevalent today are historically contingent and have their roots not in sex, but in the structure of class society. Consequently, for the overwhelming span of human history prior to the creation of class women were not oppressed by men and children were not oppressed by adults. That it was possible for people to take up the gender role of the other sex without stigma.

Another quote from you:

In short it's a fight between two types of political philosophy.

Idealists: those who believe thoughts form your reality (Butlerites and Postmodernists)

And

Materialists: those who believe material reality affects our thoughts and behaviours (Marxists)

...

Edit : It's also not surprising that the young Butlerites are fighting through that system, as they grew up in a neoliberal world and have NO idea what class consciousness looks like.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong to characterise one side of the Trans/TERF dispute as materialist and the other as idealist.

Certainly, one of the TERFs I know (Jen Isaacson) self identifies as a Marxist Feminist. Though I tend towards a different description of her using the same two initials.

I've no idea what a young Butlerite is [I suppose an old Butlerite might be a RAB(id) tory ] but I do agree with your point about the lack of examples of working class power leaving a void for identity politics to provide [wrong] answers.

 

[Jonti]

That's a big issue, isn't it? Are we in some way genetically predisposed to search for a gender identity? It's not impossible that we are, in the same way that we're predisposed to look for language and there is now growing evidence that we're predisposed to look for moral concepts like right and wrong.

That author suggests that we are predisposed to look for gender id. I don't know but the seeming ubiquity of gender id in human cultures is certainly consistent with the idea.

She says:

Gender is a basic element that helps make up an individual's personality and sense of self.

Gender dysphoria is a condition in which the patient feels that his or her gender identity is a mismatch with their actual biological sex.

I suppose gender, although a social concept, is how biology (usually) makes us happy (enough) in our sex roles. That's how I interpret the first sentence in the quote above.

 

[kabbes]

That's a big issue, isn't it? Are we in some way genetically predisposed to search for a gender identity? It's not impossible that we are, in the same way that we're predisposed to look for language and there is now growing evidence that we're predisposed to look for moral concepts like right and wrong.

That author suggests that we are predisposed to look for gender id. I don't know but the seeming ubiquity of gender id in human cultures is certainly consistent with the idea.

Even if we are predisposed to search for a gender identity, that's a long way from saying that our specifical cultural gender identities are in some way inherent. Even if that predisposition for search exists, it would still have been perfectly possible for society have evolved to have completely different -- even the binary opposite of the -- gender identities that happen to have come into being. As such, I think the question of whether the search is intrinsic or not is actually irrelevant to any question I can see people actually wanting answered, because in the end it tells us nothing about who we are.