But she's framing her arguments in class equality and not identity politics, which I don't disagree with.
Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?
- Thread starter The Flying Pig
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But she's framing her arguments in class equality and not identity politics, which I don't disagree with.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I'm fortunate that I live in a trans-friendly bubble. The shit that goes on outside of it makes me angry. People are just so bloody intolerant of people who are different from them. It's women who have hurt me the most in real life and online since transition. I'm baffled by this because, well in my naivety, I thought women were the epitome of solidarity - just like I thought the left was somehow unified by ideology. I realise that putting people, principles, ideologies on a pedestal means they will fail to live up to the impossibility of my expectations. It doesn't help though.
I know this ain't my support group, just coming out quietly to urban as trans on a trans related thread that has some hostility on it, showing once again my poor choices, naivety and complete disregard for my safety
Good on you.
Treacle Toes
Time
I'm interested in 'equity' , what you are describing is equality under capitalism where the system stays the same. Bread and circuses.
I still think that focusing on aspects of ones' identity when necessary for whatever reason isn't necessarily at odds with socialism.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
My take on that, fwiw, is that it is not inconsistent with wider solidarity. No, you don't forget your own needs. Rather you bring them to the table - you demand your time on the stage, you are listened to, and so are all other groups that feel they have a particular concern that may be missed by those outside the group, not out of indifference, just out of ignorance. I don't see any contradiction there. What she seems to be saying is that you can't take the approach that 'it'll be sorted after the revolution'. Rather, it being sorted forms part of the revolution.
It is, for example, when considering groups like the Black Panthers where some were making arguments based on class and others were making arguments based on Black Nationalism. In that instance the latter is the identity focused element and it proved divisive.
Notably the state dispersed of those making the class arguments whilst leaving the Black Nationalists untroubled. The state being happier with racial divisions being dominant argument.
Treacle Toes
Time
A very specific environment and time... One that neither you nor I actually lived, however important historically. How about we centre the discussion in the present, within our own environment and experiences?
Athos
Well-Known Member
Nor do I. Even as the fiercest critic of identity politics. But surely the difference is whether you consider identities within a framework of class analysis, or whether you focus solely on identity to the extent that it replaces class analysis. The latter seems to correspond more accurately with contemporary identity politics. Like BLM which seems to want police to kill black and white people at the same rate, rather than to challenge the role of the police within capitalism. Of course, I appreciate the temptation to focus on short-term, more achievable goals, but think that when those goals militate against longer-term goals, it's a flawed strategy.
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19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Then you really ought to talk to Barclays.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
No, we should make reference to history, and learn from it. It helps inform where we are now, and what is possible in the future.
Treacle Toes
Time
Hold on, I didn't say not to reference history so keep your hair on. I am though more interested in centring these types of discussions in the present, using present examples where possible. IME, it makes it more inclusive and engaging.. Not interested in that type of discussion?
Treacle Toes
Time
Argh.. Don't you start. I meant fairness!Then you really ought to talk to Barclays.
Athos
Well-Known Member
My example was a contemporary one.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
I don't see how both are mutually exclusive.
Not sure how it isn't relevant to my point of how the state will promote identity politics over class unity for its own interests. It's completely on topic.
Treacle Toes
Time
I didn't say it wasn't relevant, I just asked you for more present examples. I think it's helpful because it encourages us to position ourselves within the discussion we are having, instead of it being about them, over there, mot us etc.
My 'present example' which I gave earlier was Gay Pride having corporate sponsors now. I used the Black Panthers example to back up that point.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
Here you go Mungy:
Sixty-year-old woman is shoved to the ground as fists fly in a punch-up between transgender activists and their extreme feminist rivals in Hyde Park
But now that passion has erupted into the sort of outright violence normally associated with football hooligans.
Two factions – the Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists (or so-called TERFs) and their bitter enemies Trans Activists – clashed in an unseemly bust-up that ended with a 60-year-old woman being bundled to the ground and punched in the face. The incident was caught on video and is now being investigated by the police.
Mother-of-two Maria MacLachlan, who describes herself as a ‘gender critical feminist’, was attacked at Speakers’ Corner in London’s Hyde Park at about 7pm on Wednesday.
She had joined around 50 fellow TERFs who were to be given details of the secret location for a talk entitled What Is Gender? The Gender Recognition Act And Beyond.
TERFs are feminists who are opposed to some campaigning by transgender women.
The event was originally scheduled to be held at a community centre in New Cross, South-East London, but was switched following online warnings of a protest from Trans Activists.
Among the groups threatening to protest were the LGBTQ+ Society from Goldsmiths University, an organisation called Sisters Uncut, and Action For Trans Health London. Ms MacLachlan told The Mail on Sunday: ‘I was chatting to one of the speakers, Miranda Yardley, and people started to come who looked different to the rest of us. There was quite a generation thing.
‘These studenty-looking types were turning up and some arguments started to take place but I kept well out of it.’
Ms Yardley is a prominent transgender writer and was guest speaker at the event along with Dr Julia Long, who describes herself as a ‘lesbian feminist and defender of women-only spaces’. Ms MacLachlan said: ‘Julia said she was going to sing a song she had written. She took a megaphone and as soon as she put it to her lips, these kids started shouting, “When the TERFs attack, we fight back.”
‘I thought, “I can film this, it will be interesting.” They were getting louder and louder. Then suddenly someone tried to grab my camera. It was scary. Someone kept trying to get my camera. I think it was a girl, but I couldn’t tell because they had a hoodie over their eyes.’
Footage of the incident was uploaded to YouTube the day after the alleged attack, and it has since been viewed tens of thousands of times.
In a statement to police, Ms MacLachlan later identified a trans-woman who is currently trying to raise £5,000 for vocal-cord surgery to make her voice higher, as one of her attackers.
Her Lumix camera was smashed and the memory card stolen. She also sustained a nasty bruise on her face, red marks on her neck and grazed knees. She added: ‘I didn’t go to hospital but it has really shaken me up.’
Several feminists called 999 and three cars containing six officers arrived on the scene, but no arrests were made.
Notes were passed among the feminists letting them know the secret venue was the University Women’s Club in Mayfair.
They left in small groups hoping not to be followed but were tracked down by the activists. Another feminist, Jen Izaakson, said tension remained high at the venue. She added: ‘The staff had to form a human chain to let our people in and keep protesters out.’
Because students from Goldsmiths had been so vocal in opposing the original meeting, the feminists believe they formed a section of the protesters.
A spokesman for the university said: ‘Goldsmiths prides itself on its diverse and inclusive community. We uphold the right to peaceful protest but cannot condone violence.’
Action for Trans Health London issued a statement saying: ‘We condemn violence against women in all forms. We’re proud that many self-organising activists, allies and supporters stood against hatred, misogyny and intimidation.’
A Scotland Yard spokesman confirmed an investigation was ongoing and video evidence would form part of their inquiries.
Sixty-year-old woman is shoved to the ground as fists fly in a punch-up between transgender activists and their extreme feminist rivals in Hyde Park
- Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists clashed with their enemies Trans Activists
- Maria MacLachlan was attacked at Speakers’ Corner in London’s Hyde Park
- The 60-year-old mother-of-two was left shaken and the police are investigating
But now that passion has erupted into the sort of outright violence normally associated with football hooligans.
Two factions – the Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists (or so-called TERFs) and their bitter enemies Trans Activists – clashed in an unseemly bust-up that ended with a 60-year-old woman being bundled to the ground and punched in the face. The incident was caught on video and is now being investigated by the police.
Mother-of-two Maria MacLachlan, who describes herself as a ‘gender critical feminist’, was attacked at Speakers’ Corner in London’s Hyde Park at about 7pm on Wednesday.
She had joined around 50 fellow TERFs who were to be given details of the secret location for a talk entitled What Is Gender? The Gender Recognition Act And Beyond.
TERFs are feminists who are opposed to some campaigning by transgender women.
The event was originally scheduled to be held at a community centre in New Cross, South-East London, but was switched following online warnings of a protest from Trans Activists.
Among the groups threatening to protest were the LGBTQ+ Society from Goldsmiths University, an organisation called Sisters Uncut, and Action For Trans Health London. Ms MacLachlan told The Mail on Sunday: ‘I was chatting to one of the speakers, Miranda Yardley, and people started to come who looked different to the rest of us. There was quite a generation thing.
‘These studenty-looking types were turning up and some arguments started to take place but I kept well out of it.’
Ms Yardley is a prominent transgender writer and was guest speaker at the event along with Dr Julia Long, who describes herself as a ‘lesbian feminist and defender of women-only spaces’. Ms MacLachlan said: ‘Julia said she was going to sing a song she had written. She took a megaphone and as soon as she put it to her lips, these kids started shouting, “When the TERFs attack, we fight back.”
‘I thought, “I can film this, it will be interesting.” They were getting louder and louder. Then suddenly someone tried to grab my camera. It was scary. Someone kept trying to get my camera. I think it was a girl, but I couldn’t tell because they had a hoodie over their eyes.’
Footage of the incident was uploaded to YouTube the day after the alleged attack, and it has since been viewed tens of thousands of times.
In a statement to police, Ms MacLachlan later identified a trans-woman who is currently trying to raise £5,000 for vocal-cord surgery to make her voice higher, as one of her attackers.
Her Lumix camera was smashed and the memory card stolen. She also sustained a nasty bruise on her face, red marks on her neck and grazed knees. She added: ‘I didn’t go to hospital but it has really shaken me up.’
Several feminists called 999 and three cars containing six officers arrived on the scene, but no arrests were made.
Notes were passed among the feminists letting them know the secret venue was the University Women’s Club in Mayfair.
They left in small groups hoping not to be followed but were tracked down by the activists. Another feminist, Jen Izaakson, said tension remained high at the venue. She added: ‘The staff had to form a human chain to let our people in and keep protesters out.’
Because students from Goldsmiths had been so vocal in opposing the original meeting, the feminists believe they formed a section of the protesters.
A spokesman for the university said: ‘Goldsmiths prides itself on its diverse and inclusive community. We uphold the right to peaceful protest but cannot condone violence.’
Action for Trans Health London issued a statement saying: ‘We condemn violence against women in all forms. We’re proud that many self-organising activists, allies and supporters stood against hatred, misogyny and intimidation.’
A Scotland Yard spokesman confirmed an investigation was ongoing and video evidence would form part of their inquiries.
Treacle Toes
Time
Your present example is also you pointing at/observing others, over there, not you. I was wondering whether you can think of any ways you personally have to interact with and challenge or navigate this stuff. I think half of the reason conversations like this blow up is because there is a lot of what seems like telling others what they are doing wrong. Rather than giving personal examples of how one is also having to navigate these issues.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Where has that actually happened here? And what exactly are you wanting this discussion to be about? Who gets permission to talk?
Treacle Toes
Time
I was speaking generally but it has happened on this thread too. In the wider context, the finger pointing and othering thing is very much part of what we are discussing isn't it? The shortcomings of exclusionary identity politics? The externalising of traits that one or one's group doesn't want to be associated with. The focus on difference exclusively with not enough focus given to commonalities/soldiarity building.
Eh? I think what I've said to MM and the reasons given are clear enough.
Permission? Why even take it there? We all have permission as members of Urban surely.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Yup.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Seems to me both groups have lost a bit of perspective here in their obsession with each other. They follow each other around to denounce one another as misogynists.
The Flying Pig
Well-Known Member
So after thirty one pages of argument and debate finally Jonti has come to my rescue. I now at least have some understanding of what took place and what is going on in the world of transgender and feminism. Thank you.
bemused
Well-Known Member
Google is way faster than an urban thread for finding stuff out.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Will you start one?
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