Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[8ball]

You need to argue convincingly that taking the drug Doperamide whilst breastfeeding is child abuse, and you need to make sure you are not implicating all women in the process. One more try, come on Magnus!

Domperidone.

 

[weepiper]

Yes I'm soooo jealous, if only we had the privilege of being subjected to eternal rounds of emotive bingo like they are. For a full house, ickle babies being poisoned by the nasty man.

You're not very pleasant, I don't think I'll bother engaging with you anymore.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You need to argue convincingly that taking the drug Doperamide whilst breastfeeding is child abuse, and you need to make sure you are not implicating all women in the process. One more try, come on Magnus!

Surely it’s obvious? If they’re not being prescribed it then they’re sourcing it online and self medicating. Which means they’re putting their own wants before the needs of their child. I’d condemn anyone doing that.

 

[weepiper]

You need to argue convincingly that taking the drug Doperamide whilst breastfeeding is child abuse, and you need to make sure you are not implicating all women in the process. One more try, come on Magnus!

It's not 'taking domperidone while breastfeeding'. It's taking domperidone, progesterone and estrogen to induce lactation in someone who would never otherwise be able to produce milk. It's not a valid comparison.

 

[elbows]

You're not very pleasant, I don't think I'll bother engaging with you anymore.

Whatever. I'd like to thank you, and a couple of others on this thread whose attitudes towards all things trans have inspired me to donate a fair proportion of my future earning to trans causes and fighting the small fringe of radical feminists who've gone to the darkside over such matters.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Domperidone.

AYE THAT N AW

 

[smokedout]

A Transgender Woman Has Exclusively Breastfed Her Baby, & It's A Dream Come True

Not so much a dream come true for the poor infant being selfishly used as a human guinea pig fed drugs specifically contra-indicated in breastfeeding women. Or the actual mother, who is almost completely invisible in this article.

It seems to be a drug that is used all over the world to stimulate lactation and is recommended by breastfeeding groups: https://www.breastfeedingnetwork.or...tatement on domperidone as a galactogogue.pdf
https://www.breastfeedingnetwork.or...tatement on domperidone as a galactogogue.pdf
But let's not let that get in the way of trying to smear a trans woman as a child abuser.

 

[elbows]

In relation to my last post, I need some tips as to where to direct my energies. I've got no money at all for about 6 months, but I have a lot of spare time to give to the cause in the meantime. Although to be fair, due to various nerdular limitations on my part, this time resource mostly takes the form of sitting in front of a computer. Even so, any tips appreciated, including groups to avoid that might have some weird history I dont know about.

 

[8ball]

It seems to be a drug that is used all over the world to stimulate lactation and is recommended by breastfeeding groups: https://www.breastfeedingnetwork.org.uk/wp-content/dibm/BfN statement on domperidone as a galactogogue.pdf
But let's not let that get in the way of trying to smear a trans woman as a child abuser.

I gather it is recommended for short-term use only due to a fear (and from what I gather it really is just a fear based on pharmacological reasoning) that it could cause lifelong heart issues (in terms of negative structural changes) if used for long periods of time in infants. So the length of use is an important thing to factor in.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I gather it is recommended for short-term use only due to a fear (and from what I gather it really is just a fear based on pharmacological reasoning) that it could cause lifelong heart issues (in terms of negative structural changes) if used for long periods of time in infants. So the length of use is an important thing to factor in.

No it’s fine; the urban experts have said so. Any disagreement is just smearing.

 

[8ball]

No it’s fine; the urban experts have said so. Any disagreement is just smearing.

My non-medically-trained hunch is that it *almost certainly* is fine.

Here's a link where some current advice can be found:
Domperidone for gastro-oesophageal reflux | Medicines for Children

Here's a link to the (archived) MHRA press release, which is much more general in scope:
Press releases : MHRA

It's a pretty theoretical balancing of risks against benefits, so a lot will come down to evaluation of benefit in my view.
Also, data suggests the amounts of domperidone making it into breast milk are very small.

smokedout's link is also very clear on some of the contraindications re: heart and electrolyte levels that should be observed when using this drug.

 

[elbows]

I've been very clear about various details when it comes to Domperidone. I do not support simplified versions of this story where the drug is simply deemed safe or nothing to ever think about. That doesnt mean I'm going to avoid correcting inaccurate statements about its use in the UK, or avoid questioning the motives of those who choose to discuss this topic as it applies to trans people with very different language and implications compared to what would be said when discussing women using it.

 

[elbows]

IPSOS survey of global attitudes toward transgender people. I cant decide how interesting the results are due to limitations of what stuff is mentioned in that article.

Global Attitudes Toward Transgender People

Anyone know if the full dataset is available? Is it something that costs money to get our hands on?

 

[8ball]

I've been very clear about various details when it comes to Domperidone. I do not support simplified versions of this story where the drug is simply deemed safe or nothing to ever think about. That doesnt mean I'm going to avoid correcting inaccurate statements about its use in the UK, or avoid questioning the motives of those who choose to discuss this topic as it applies to trans people with very different language and implications compared to what would be said when discussing women using it.

Although, as weepiper has said, there could be a few extra variables to consider than just the domperidone as compared with a more typical case of a mother with low milk production. Hard to say what they would be if the hormones involved closely end up matching a new mother, I suppose (I'm totally in ignorant-speculation-land on this one).

It's that old thing of balancing known benefits against the precautionary principle.

 

[maomao]

Although, as weepiper has said, there could be a few extra variables to consider than just the domperidone as compared with a more typical case of a mother with low milk production. Hard to say what they would be if the hormones involved closely end up matching a new mother, I suppose (I'm totally in ignorant-speculation-land on this one).

It's that old thing of balancing known benefits against the precautionary principle.

And proving it one way or another is generally considered ethically unsound. Except when it's beautiful.

 

[bimble]

I think maybe that story as reported is not quite true you know, it only appears in that one obscure website called 'romper' far as i can see and reads as publicity for the clinic in NY where the doctors have taken the credit for this claimed first ever in the world result. If this really was achieved (baby fed entirely this way for months) I'd expect it to be, or become, of wider interest to scientists (and journalists).

 

[8ball]

I think maybe that story as reported is not quite true you know, it only appears in that one obscure website called 'romper' far as i can see and reads as publicity for the clinic in NY where the doctors have taken the credit for this claimed first ever in the world result. If this really was achieved (baby fed entirely this way for months) I'd expect it to be, or become, of wider interest to scientists (and journalists).

I get the feeling some of this is about publicising the practice and bringing it medically 'in house', since some transgender people have been using drug regimens similar to this for a while now (anyway, this is how it seems to me, from reading around the margins a little).

Edit: After reading a bit more I'm pretty certain this is the case: ie. its not a matter of a "first" in terms of the practice, but a first in the case of a published case report in a (admittedly obscure) medical journal. This can only be a good thing.

 

[smokedout]

Well whoopy do for you, have a cookie. The baby's mother that gave birth to it can do all that without pumping herself full of hormones and nausea suppressors, and she's the only one in the relationship that can make colostrum, which is the most important breast milk with huge benefits for the baby, because colostrum is produced in pregnancy. Why is it better for the father (it is the baby's father we're talking about in this instance) to go through all those hoops to produce milk which isn't as good as the mother's? How about she gets to bond with her own baby?

Would you feel the same if this was a non-trans lesbian family and the natal mother chose not to breastfeed (or was unable to)?

 

[Sea Star]

That doesnt mean I'm going to avoid correcting inaccurate statements about its use in the UK, or avoid questioning the motives of those who choose to discuss this topic as it applies to trans people with very different language and implications compared to what would be said when discussing women using it.

I don't suppose you meant to imply that trans women aren't women there, but that's exactly what you did. If you had used "cisgender women" then that little faux pas would never have happened.

 

[elbows]

Although, as weepiper has said, there could be a few extra variables to consider than just the domperidone as compared with a more typical case of a mother with low milk production. Hard to say what they would be if the hormones involved closely end up matching a new mother, I suppose (I'm totally in ignorant-speculation-land on this one).

It's that old thing of balancing known benefits against the precautionary principle.

Not an easy balancing act at the best of times, let alone when approaching 'new frontiers'.

I only considered Domperidone so far because I asked whether they were referring to other drugs with their original point and they were apparently not. But the other stuff was then mentioned in a later post so I will have a look at that at some point.

 

[elbows]

I think maybe that story as reported is not quite true you know, it only appears in that one obscure website called 'romper' far as i can see and reads as publicity for the clinic in NY where the doctors have taken the credit for this claimed first ever in the world result. If this really was achieved (baby fed entirely this way for months) I'd expect it to be, or become, of wider interest to scientists (and journalists).

That article links to the report. I have not dug any deeper than this yet:

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie (link works despite bad title)

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Although, as weepiper has said, there could be a few extra variables to consider than just the domperidone as compared with a more typical case of a mother with low milk production. Hard to say what they would be if the hormones involved closely end up matching a new mother, I suppose (I'm totally in ignorant-speculation-land on this one).

It's that old thing of balancing known benefits against the precautionary principle.

Similarly ignorantly, the function of other hormones here is to tell the body to do something - lactate- basically by mimicking the hormonal changes that happens during pregnancy . If successful I can't see why the milk itself would be harmful as the fact that the hormones are artificial shouldn't affect the process itself, isn't it kinda binary in that sense, "do this" "Stop doing this"

But I only did a basic course in pharmacology so ... It's very interesting . I find the idea of dudes lactating really cool

 

[bimble]

elbows Yeah i read that, but its just them (the docs at the NY clinic) self-publishing. I guess in time more research will be done & peer reviewed etc. Not saying it didn't happen, how would i know, just that its weird only that one website is interested, and they corresponded with the clinic leaders etc.

 

[Sea Star]

But I only did a basic course in pharmacology so ... It's very interesting . I find the idea of dudes lactating really cool

This case isn't a "dude" - she's a woman.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Would you feel the same if this was a non-trans lesbian family and the natal mother chose not to breastfeed (or was unable to)?

There are an awful lot of assumptions in weepiper's arguments. We can make some of our own: that the mother who gave birth had a say in this and that the couple decided between them that this was what they wanted for their family.

Unfortunately there are also some other implications for weepiper's argument as well: namely that breastfeeding is the be all and end all, which is the kind of thing that is incredibly unhelpful to mothers who are unable to breastfeed for various reasons (which is why there has been so much campaigning and training around not making mothers feel like complete failures if they can't or won't).

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

This case isn't a "dude" - she's a woman.

I know, I meant in a general sense that it can be achieved. I think I have made it pretty clear what my thoughts are on this subject generally !

 

[weepiper]

There are an awful lot of assumptions in weepiper's arguments. We can make some of our own: that the mother who gave birth had a say in this and that the couple decided between them that this was what they wanted for their family.

Unfortunately there are also some other implications for weepiper's argument as well: namely that breastfeeding is the be all and end all, which is the kind of thing that is incredibly unhelpful to mothers who are unable to breastfeed for various reasons (which is why there has been so much campaigning and training around not making mothers feel like complete failures if they can't or won't).

That's not what I'm saying at all. I really struggled to get my first to feed due to birth complications and gave up when she was about ten days old because it was so upsetting and stressful that it was spoiling my time with her. Then I beat myself up for months for having failed her (despite her thriving on the bottle). Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Athos]

We just don't know enough to comment sensibly. If the whole family decided that this was what was best for the child, after weighing the risks of doing it versus the disbenefits of the alternative(s), that's one thing. If the biological father bullied the biological mother into running this risk to the child's health, solely to validate their own belief that they're a woman, by aping an essentially female trait, that's quite another. I could well believe either (or something else/inbetween). But we shouldn't assume a selfish motivation for a trans person using that drug where we wouldn't for a woman who isn't trans.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I don't suppose you meant to imply that trans women aren't women there, but that's exactly what you did. If you had used "cisgender women" then that little faux pas would never have happened.

That's unfair.

 

[Sea Star]

That's unfair.

is it? Really? Why can't I ask that at least those people on here who aren't out and out transphobes please try to be careful about how they phrase things. I didn;t accuse him of saying it on purpose. I said "i don't suppose you meant to..." etc. So I think I was fair.