Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Vintage Paw]

Would writing for Breitbart be any worse than comparing trans people to the Paedophile Information Exchange while talking to Rod Liddle for a Spectator piece?

Yes and no.

If you think of the mythological middle ground, the mainstream, the imagined centre (none of which is immutable, none of which is neutral, all of which is as ideological a position as anything else), the Spectator still holds a place within that. By that I don't mean its politics are moderate, centre, etc, but rather that it is part of an established narrative. Breitbart falls outside of that, and carries with it certain connotations. Additionally, while there are a few unquestionably extreme voices at outfits like the Spectator, somewhere like Breitbart makes that its bread and butter. It's written by the alt-right, for the alt-right. The Spectator would still, if it were to have any sense of this, have a sense of being broadly for gender equality, against sexism, etc, although the ideology it supports of course is one grounded firmly in continuing to reproduce patriarchy. Breitbart no such thing.

So it's a question of degrees. Breitbart is full on red pill, MRA, MGTOW, anti-feminist, women-hating bile. While saying those things to Liddle in the Spectator is unspeakably vile, to 'cross over' if you will to a publication that is diametrically opposed to your very existence in very public and nasty ways says an awful lot about the supposed feminism of supposed feminists.

But, this is moot because to my knowledge none of them have done this. Quoting Staines as an ally in their anti-trans 'feminism' is really rather questionable though. (And yes, I'm aware, 'not all anti-trans feminists'.)

 

[elbows]

Given the wide range of subtopics discussed within this thread, the concept of 'basically the same thread' is rather problematic. Especially since a lot of the falling out and ill will is hardly limited to just one of the subtopics.

 

[MochaSoul]

Doesn't matter who didn't want to publish me, I wouldn't turn to the right because I'm not an arsehole. Who people choose as their friends is often quite telling.

It's funny because complaints to Labour HQ about lies and data protection breaches of people on this side of the fence (sometimes about women who are not even members of the LP and which have been simply reported to the police) go ignored and not investigated, with the people feeling the brunt of those then not having the right to speak out for fear of looking an arsehole. For days, no comment on the crowd funding initiative was made to the likes of The Sun or the Daily Mail, for example. The result being that the only people reporting and wholly misrepresenting them was Prick News. But women are the arseholes.

 

[Vintage Paw]

It's funny because complaints to Labour HQ about lies and data protection breaches of people on this side of the fence (sometimes about women who are not even members of the LP and which have been simply reported to the police) go ignored and not investigated, with the people feeling the brunt of those then not having the right to speak out for fear of looking an arsehole. For days, no comment on the crowd funding initiative was made to the likes of The Sun or the Daily Mail, for example. The result being that the only people reporting and wholly misrepresenting them was Prick News. But women are the arseholes.

People who turn to the right in order to somehow pursue their 'feminism' are arseholes, yes.

 

[bimble]

I appreciate the difficulties but surely you're not suggesting that any discussion on trans rights or trans activists could be banned from these boards just because someone makes a complaint about this thread?

Its symptomatic, why should these boards be any different, a conversation is impossible when disagreement is framed as personal attack, which must be what's going on when people are reporting posts.

 

[elbows]

Its symptomatic, why should these boards be any different, a conversation is impossible when disagreement is framed as personal attack, which must be what's going on when people are reporting posts.

Forum moderators the world over may as well give up now if the ridiculous misuse of the term gaslighting, which I already moaned about plenty yesterday, is allowed to become in any way accepted. The death of debate.

 

[bimble]

i've never really understood what gaslighting means tbh, but i think it involves more than a post on a forum that you don't agree with.
oh shit maybe i just did gaslighting.

 

[MochaSoul]

People who turn to the right in order to somehow pursue their 'feminism' are arseholes, yes.

Maybe they are. They must be past caring being perceived as arseholes when getting them out of their jobs become the way to attack their views. I may not agree with their actions but I can totally understand them.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

i've never really understood what gaslighting means tbh, but i think it involves more than a post on a forum that you don't agree with.
oh shit maybe i just did gaslighting.

Basically watch the film Gaslight starring Ingrid Bergman.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I haven’t reported any posts on this thread (I suspect a few of my own have been reported by transphobes). I agree though that this thread is largely poisonous. Not because people are rude to each other, but because much of the tone has been set by a small group of anti-trans ideologues who are entirely unrepresentative of wider social debates about trans issues.

 

[bimble]

Nigel I'll miss you when our chats get shut down. I would bet you a pint, and actually sit down next to you whilst you drink it, that none of the reports were from 'transphobes' though. I may be wrong of course, which you will never be.

 

[elbows]

i've never really understood what gaslighting means tbh, but i think it involves more than a post on a forum that you don't agree with.
oh shit maybe i just did gaslighting.

I wont try to give the proper description of it because I already covered much of it in a rant the other day.

But I will say that for an equivalent of the most extreme forms of gaslighting to actually happen on a forum, it would involve stuff like posts being edited in a deliberate campaign to undermine someones faith in their own sanity, memory of events, etc.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Maybe they are. They must be past caring being perceived as arseholes when getting them out of their jobs become the way to attack their views. I may not agree with their actions but I can totally understand them.

Has anyone actually been fired for “feminist” transphobia? I suspect not or we’d never have heard the end of it.

By the way, this thread’s TERFs responded angrily when, much earlier in the discussion, I argued that the TERFs were going to end up deliberately putting themselves at the service of the conservative media as they became entirely unwelcome in the broader left. Now here you are not only echoing that argument but justifying that approach.

 

[Sea Star]

Forum moderators the world over may as well give up now if the ridiculous misuse of the term gaslighting, which I already moaned about plenty yesterday, is allowed to become in any way accepted. The death of debate.

Calling me a narcissist was the death of this debate. Get fucked!!

 

[MochaSoul]

i've never really understood what gaslighting means tbh, but i think it involves more than a post on a forum that you don't agree with.
oh shit maybe i just did gaslighting.

Gaslighting - Wikipedia

 

[elbows]

Calling me a narcissist was the death of this debate. Get fucked!!

I have no idea why you have made that comment in response to me. I was no part of the recent bit of the thread where someone called you a narcissist.

 

[Sea Star]

Gaslighting actually a domestic abuse thing. Actually making someone doubt their own sanity as opposed to bullshitting on a forum. Not a great term to just chuck around.

I've been gaslighted in domestic abuse thank you. I know what it means

 

[bimble]

Calling me a narcissist was the death of this debate. Get fucked!!

 

[Pickman's model]

I've been gaslighted in domestic abuse thank you. I know what it means

Gaslit

 

[Shechemite]

Calling me a narcissist was the death of this debate.

Totally non-narcisssist post this.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Nigel I'll miss you when our chats get shut down. I would bet you a pint, and actually sit down next to you whilst you drink it, that none of the reports were from 'transphobes' though. I may be wrong of course, which you will never be.

Can we settle on "people who want the trans to just go away"

I wont try to give the proper description of it because I already covered much of it in a rant the other day.

But I will say that for an equivalent of the most extreme forms of gaslighting to actually happen on a forum, it would involve stuff like posts being edited in a deliberate campaign to undermine someones faith in their own sanity, memory of events, etc.

I don't doubt it happens in politics and debate and that but would need to be seriously sustained and relentless to warrant that label.

 

[bimble]

I haven’t reported any posts on this thread (I suspect a few of my own have been reported by transphobes). I agree though that this thread is largely poisonous. Not because people are rude to each other, but because much of the tone has been set by a small group of anti-trans ideologues who are entirely unrepresentative of wider social debates about trans issues.

What are these 'wider social debates about trans issues'?

 

[MochaSoul]

Has anyone actually been fired for “feminist” transphobia? I suspect not or we’d never have heard the end of it.

By the way, this thread’s TERFs responded angrily when, much earlier in the discussion, I argued that the TERFs were going to end up deliberately putting themselves at the service of the conservative media as they became entirely unwelcome in the broader left. Now here you are not only echoing that argument but justifying that approach.

In your mind understanding a behaviour is the same as condoning it. In mine, it isn't, but what you say needs too many and too copious amounts of salt to be taken seriously.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I've been gaslighted in domestic abuse thank you. I know what it means

My post wasn't in response to yours. What are you getting at?

 

[bimble]

Sea Star said ages ago that the thread should be closed so, here we are.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I think drink has been teen, I know I have. Can we resume this tomorrow?

 

[Vintage Paw]

In your mind understanding a behaviour is the same as condoning it. In mine, it isn't, but what you say needs too many and too copious amounts of salt to be taken seriously.

So you don't condone the courting of right-wing publications and commentators by anti-trans feminists? That's good to know.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

What are these 'wider social debates about trans issues'?

The conflict between anti-trans social conservatism and pro trans rights left and progressive sentiment. As you are aware, the “gender critical” case against trans rights is a fringe position, heavily over represented in the discussion here but only of wider relevance as a source of some of the transphobic shock stories in the conservative press.

 

[MochaSoul]

So you don't condone the courting of right-wing publications and commentators by anti-trans feminists? That's good to know.

Yes, I don't think right wing newspapers should be allowed to pretend to be our voices (lest they use them for their own purposes). That's talking my kind of feminism. Not the Guardian kind. When talking accusations of spreading hate against one group of people and taking into account newspapers with a wide readership pick up and report on them while at the same time those individuals are being subject to persecution for their views in a political party that says itself to be such a broad church that blairites remain in there.... Those individuals absolutely have a right to reply to what they are being accused of and putting their point across regardless of newspaper.

Besides, witchhunts should not go unreported even in a far from perfect democracy whichever the newspaper.

 

[bimble]

The conflict between anti-trans social conservatism and pro trans rights left and progressive sentiment. As you are aware, the “gender critical” case against trans rights is a fringe position, heavily over represented in the discussion here but only of wider relevance as a source of some of the transphobic shock stories in the conservative press.

So basically you are saying that the people talking here are not representative of social conservatism and that therefore they are irrelevant?
So there is no place in your world for a 'left' criticism of the ideology that says 'gender identity' is innate ?