Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
You have a knack for trying to reframe someone's argument so as to continually shift the goalposts and ensure a talking point can never be fully discussed.
Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?
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You have a knack for trying to reframe someone's argument so as to continually shift the goalposts and ensure a talking point can never be fully discussed.
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Words like narcissist and gaslighting are thrown around by femimists, at feminists because the connotations are mutually understood- in that they can relate to domestic abuse . The narc abuser etc. that most of us don't know what the fuck is going on doesn't change the fact that MS probably knew what she was saying and SS heard her loud and clear. I have seen this toxic shite too often, it ought to go in the bin.
bimble
floofy
Thats the opposite of what i want! I've got a half-written reply to your two pages ago post. Why would I want to ensure that a talking point can't properly be discussed? that would be a proper waste of time.
Nigel just said that the reason this thread is pointless is because it does not represent 'the wider debate' . Then when asked he said the wider debate is about social conservatives v the 'pro trans rights left'. So if I and others here am not a social conservative i'm irrelevant, to the wider debate, is his position and always has been.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
That’s not entirely fair. “A knack” implies that she’s good at it.
bimble
floofy
Asked to explain what he means by 'the wider debate':
That's it. Gender critical feminists basically do not exist. Or if they do exist they should shut up or deserve to be ignored because they are small, compared to the conservative right.
How is that 'trying to reframe someone's argument to avoid properly discussing something'? It is not me who is trying to avoid discussing things.
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Only nobody on this thread has gotten all up in your shit on that particular point though. Quotes please if I missed it.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
I was going to reply, mochasoul, before you deleted, that if you don't have a gender identity, I fully support you in that. Just as I fully support those who do feel they have one, and who know what that is.
I take issue with the idea that while we all have a deeply complex debate about the nature of gender (which isn't something we can hope to have a definitive answer on currently, or maybe ever), trans people are being asked to stop existing until we get it all sorted out. The rub being of course that we won't sort it out. So, if they can just sort of stop existing full stop that'd be great. But cis women can continue to exist. The ones who do think they have a gender, the ones who aren't anti-trans, the ones who aren't 'gender critical' in the sense that they don't believe chromosomes or genitalia are the sum of their being, they're still allowed to call themselves women, even if they're doing it erroneously in some people's view. But not trans women. No. They've got to stop it right now.
(edit: and your re-edit seems to be largely in keeping with your original message, so my post stands)
I take issue with the idea that while we all have a deeply complex debate about the nature of gender (which isn't something we can hope to have a definitive answer on currently, or maybe ever), trans people are being asked to stop existing until we get it all sorted out. The rub being of course that we won't sort it out. So, if they can just sort of stop existing full stop that'd be great. But cis women can continue to exist. The ones who do think they have a gender, the ones who aren't anti-trans, the ones who aren't 'gender critical' in the sense that they don't believe chromosomes or genitalia are the sum of their being, they're still allowed to call themselves women, even if they're doing it erroneously in some people's view. But not trans women. No. They've got to stop it right now.
(edit: and your re-edit seems to be largely in keeping with your original message, so my post stands)
bimble
floofy
seriously?
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
Sorry, that post appeared twice on my screen so I thought I had double posted.
bimble
floofy
How are people that i like and respect 'liking' this post ? The idea that because a 'left' / feminist view is 'fringe' its poisenous and irrelevant and that the only real important thing is what the conservative right thinks? Jesus.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I’m saying that the bulk of the anti-trans positions argued here do not represent the opinions of any substantial section of society, reflecting as they do the ideological framework of a subset of the radfem subset of the feminist movement. Transphobia is quite widespread but almost all of it is motivated by social conservatism. The “gender critical” position only has two relatively minor impacts on the wider world - (1) some personal nastiness to trans people and (2) the provision of anti trans shock stories and a few apparently “progressive” arguments to the socially conservative media.
bimble said:
You are amusingly persistent when it comes to inserting the arguments you wish your opponents were making into their mouths. The issue with TERFery is not that it says gender identity is not innate but that it seeks to deny trans people their right to live as their preferred gender socially, legally and politically. As for whether there’s room for that on the left, much of the loud whining about how TERFs are being victimized here indicates that they are well aware that factually there is no place for their views and behavior on the left.
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
No Jesus is away to the pub n aw
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
That's all of them like
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Don't believe me, I cite Belle and Sebastian getting that Brit Award. Or Boaty McBoatface.
trashpony
Hag
Oh and here's some terrible, terrible transphobic media reporting:
Transgender woman in male prison ‘nightmare’ on hunger strike
What the Guardian failed to mention is that Marie Dean is actually a prolific sex offender who broke into teenage girls' homes and filmed himself wanking in their underwear.
Cross-dressing Burnley burglar jailed indefinitely
There is no way this person should be housed in the female estate.
Transgender woman in male prison ‘nightmare’ on hunger strike
What the Guardian failed to mention is that Marie Dean is actually a prolific sex offender who broke into teenage girls' homes and filmed himself wanking in their underwear.
Cross-dressing Burnley burglar jailed indefinitely
There is no way this person should be housed in the female estate.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
You're misrepresenting the spirit (and content) of Nigel's reply and I'm going to be generous and suggest it's perhaps because you haven't fully understood what he's saying and are talking past him.
bimble
floofy
No go on, please. I'm irate but I am listening. What have I missed? He said this thread was poisonous because it did not reflect the wider debate. Then explained what he thinks the wider debate consists of. I've taken the time to quote both posts of his, before and after I asked him to clarify. He thinks the wider debate does not have space for anyone who is not the conservative right.
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
I think that's fair, I started reading her posts that way a while back
trashpony
Hag
Who knows? It's a lot more than the people that contributed to the similar fund that Lily Madigan and mates set up
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
He said that the majority of resistance to trans rights is informed by the conservative right and rad fems are a fringe element here. He hasn't said he rejects what they say based on the fact they are a minority. He rejects what they say based on like, what they say. Is that clear?
bimble
floofy
Nope. He has never addressed what 'they' say. He has never engaged with what they say at all. He has just dismissed them for being small in number.
That's cool, I've been reading your posts as if you're a quite friendly drunk person I just met who is leaning a bit too far forward into my ear.I think that's fair, I started reading her posts that way a while back
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HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
do you not think we should all just join hands and fight the state thegether?
I am rum. It's now socialist politics diluted. Come on trashpony, I loved your cunts black tie dinner post. Point the gun at the enemy
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Thaaaaanks!
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
I suspect the estate that once housed Rose West and Myra Hindley would cope somehow.
bimble
floofy
Please come back to this, as you accused me of wanting to avoid a proper conversation which i do feel as a hurtful accusation.
What have i missed in Nigel's point?
I truly believe that he is saying that the only conversation that matters is the conservative right versus trans rights and that anyone else, all gender critical feminists, are irrelevant, apart from in whether or not they help the conservative right.
If you think there's something I haven't fully understood what is it?
trashpony
Hag
I have the gun pointed at the enemy. And it isn't womendo you not think we should all just join hands and fight the state thegether?
I am rum. It's now socialist politics diluted. Come on trashpony, I loved your cunts black tie dinner post. Point the gun at the enemy
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