Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[HoratioCuthbert]

Moving forward like paying for stuff on your phone at tescos is progressive?

Ha!!!

 

[Vintage Paw]

Excellent post smokedout

 

[bimble]

There was a time when only people who experienced severe gender dysphoria were generally known as transsexuals. Now a bunch of kids have come along and thrown a lot of that out of the window, saying they don't need to be gender dysphoric to reject or change their gender they can be whatever the fuck they want. A lot of young people now are rejecting gender completely, or identifying as non-binary, or gender fluid. I do not believe that this is strengthening the gender binary, I think it is weakening it. I think it's possible, given that the material conditions that underpinned the gender binary have changed significantly, that the importance of gender is likely to diminish significantly inthe future and this generation are the vanguard of that. I hope so, it certainly looks like a more sustained challenge to the gender binary than anything trans critical feminists ever managed to pull off.

Go on. How is it that identifying out of the category called women (without having any dysphoria with your body) helps to destroy the gender binary? What are they identifying out of? How does that help?
Do you think that someone identifying as rainbow unicorn gender with pronouns to fit helps destroy sexism? More than if they just carried on with their lives and were wrestlers/ scientists or whatever thing is not the role of 'cis women'?

 

[smokedout]

.

 

[bimble]

uh, you just quoted your self.

 

[pengaleng]

Go on. How is it that identifying out of the category called women (without having any dysphoria with your body) helps to destroy the gender binary? What are they identifying out of? How does that help?
Do you think that someone identifying as rainbow unicorn gender with pronouns to fit helps destroy sexism? More than if they just carried on with their lives and were wrestlers/ scientists or whatever thing is not the role of 'cis women'?

you hurt my brain sometimes lol

 

[bimble]

you hurt my brain sometimes lol

I am not going to suffer alone.

 

[Pickman's model]

uh

((((bimble))))

 

[bimble]

 

[bimble]

It's a cult.

I think so too. But when a cult gets really big its not a cult anymore its just what there is. eg) christianity. Loads of stuff in there that makes no sense and a massive body count, but nobody nowadays calls it a cult.

 

[pengaleng]

the extremists are cult like, their movements have cult like characteristics, but those people are an extreme minority just like terfs

 

[bimble]

the extremists are cult like, their movements have cult like characteristics, but those people are an extreme minority

Who are the majority then? Just individuals trying to get on with their lives who never go online?

 

[pengaleng]

Who are the majority then? Just individuals trying to get on with their loves who never go online?

regular people who dont give a fuck either way and just want people to be happy

 

[bimble]

regular people who dont give a fuck either way and just want people to be happy

People will never be happy, or regular. Its sweet but misguided.
But seriously, stats are not in yet on whether identifying as a rainbow unicorn or going through surgery will make you more or less happy in the long term.

 

[pengaleng]

People will never be happy, or regular. Its sweet but misguided.

not really, you ever hear these convos in the street or on the night bus?? no cus everyone is doing themselves

the only time i ever see of this shit is when i come on here and this used to be an alright website

 

[pengaleng]

But seriously, stats are not in yet on whether identifying as a rainbow unicorn or going through surgery will make you more or less happy in the long term.

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying, being happy isnt the point,, most people arent but they want others to be

I well gotta go smoke me spliff and do some cleaning

 

[bimble]

this used to be an alright website

Yeah i wasn't here back then.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

People will never be happy, or regular. Its sweet but misguided.

This reminds me of that saying "normal is a cycle on a washing machine".. When I first heard it I thought it was "normal is a psychological washing machine".

I think my mishearing is more correct.

Anyway, I think your right.

 

[pengaleng]

Yeah i wasn't here back then.

that was what I was getting at

 

[Teaboy]

It's clearly not a cult and its a dismissive suggestion to say it is.

 

[bimble]

It's clearly not a cult and its a dismissive suggestion to say it is.

Expand. What are the defining characteristics of a cult?

 

[lazythursday]

The word cissexism was new to me yesterday.
So I've had a google. I think its a more extreme version of 'transphobia', it expresses the idea that any distinctions at all drawn between biological members of a sex and people who identify as that gender are now to be verboten.
I also don't like the appropriation of the word sexism.

out of interest, does the word heterosexism bother you in the same way (appropriation?)

 

[pengaleng]

I stand by my suggestion that some groups are cult like as one of me m8s went to a group and when someone used the wrong language they were ostracised and removed from the only support network they had so it does happen and it makes me think of scientology, but thats not a cult either is it it's a religion

just putting it out there

 

[Teaboy]

Expand. What are the defining characteristics of a cult?

There are groups of people within any sort of community / grouping (whichever way you want to describe it) that act in a cult like way. Do they reflect upon everyone? Doe's every oddball leftie whose member of some weird micro group reflect the wider left movement?

A handful of shouty people on the internet means nothing more than there is a handful of shouty people on the internet. I'm concerned you're beginning to see demons around corners.

ETA: and saying the sort of thing my dad would have said in the 80's.

 

[bimble]

out of interest, does the word heterosexism bother you in the same way (appropriation?)

Never heard it before you just said it. Is it in any way different from heteronormativity?
If not then yes.
Sexism exists, its based on sex discrimination (as in people with vaginas being treated different).

 

[elbows]

I must say that trying to prevent a backlash by becoming part of the first wave of it is a curious strategy, good luck.

What are you talking about?

Had a bath, feel well enough to answer this now, though I think I'll keep it short and fill in more later if anyone requires.

At the moment its extremely hard for me to disassociate in my mind the sort of groups who might try to encourage, energise and use a backlash, from some of the groups, people and ideological positions you are taking/are aligned with.

I could be wrong, I might have misunderstood the nature of the suggested backlash, or of your relationship with certain groups and positions.

I'm not sure how much I will really learn about this from this thread, compared to how much may become clearer if we get past the current phase where 'self-id' is claimed as the central issue of a particular campaign or two. Because I doubt many people believe that, should for example some self-id issues within the Labour party be settled one way or another, that certain groups will simply declare 'we won' and not just move on to other issues, expressed with the same degree of venom. For example that gofundme page didnt manage to stick to the self-id issue alone, there was no apparent desire to maximise the number of people who would support the fundraiser over the self-id thing but not some of the other stuff expressed at length on that page.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I stand by my suggestion that some groups are cult like as one of me m8s went to a group and when someone used the wrong language they were ostracised and removed from the only support network they had so it does happen and it makes me think of scientology, but thats not a cult either is it it's a religion

just putting it out there

The left is indeed stressful. Someone in the Labour party here tried to "erase" for want of a better word my refugee aid collection because I told him Assad was a cunt, and there were factual errors in his EU ref posts. If any serious challenge to the state were to happen, these guys would have little to do with it I suspect.

 

[bimble]

A handful of shouty people on the internet means nothing more than there is a handful of shouty people on the internet.

In the early days of Christianity, there were the equivalent of just a handful of shouty people on the internet, except they wore sandals and didn't go online they wrote on hide and called meetings. Apostates have been chopped up ever since. What is your point? There is an extreme and new ideological paradigm being promoted, about gender identity being a state of mind/ inner truth beyond explaining and sex being nothing. You said its not a cult, please explain why not, is it because its already too big?

 

[lazythursday]

Never heard it before you just said it. Is it in any way different from heteronormativity?
If not then yes.
Sexism exists, its based on sex discrimination (as in people with vaginas being treated different).

I think there's a subtle difference from heteronormativity but beyond me to figure it out. But it's a term that's been in use for quite some time now and I've never heard anyone criticise it for appropriation.

 

[Teaboy]

In the early days of Christianity, there were the equivalent of just a handful of shouty people on the internet, except they wore sandals and didn't go online they wrote on hide and called meetings. Apostates have been chopped up ever since. What is your point? There is an extreme and new ideological paradigm being promoted, about gender identity being a state of mind/ inner truth beyond explaining and sex being nothing. You said its not a cult, please explain why not, is it because its already too big?

Nah, its mostly just people trying to get on with their lives in a way that makes it as bearable as possible. There is obviously a shouty element which will have elements of cultist behaviour like any vocal grouping but it appears to me that you are grouping every trans persons into being a cultist. Which ain't right is it?