Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[bimble]

Its from "the GENDER book". It says on the graphic that its by Mel Reiff Hill (one of the authors of the book) adapted from an original idea by Josephine Tittsworth.

yay ! I love crude graphics.

 

[xenon]

Here Pengaleng, Sea Star, you are officially an ideology. How does that feel? Indeed, how would you know you were one? maybe Bungle kanes!


Some are, some are very specific as to the definitions. It pays to keep an open mind on what people might mean, dogmatists are like vegans anyway, if they want you to know they are specifically trying to distance themselves from certain language they will soon tell you. Google the terms.

Currently orthodoxy is that transsexuals are part of the transgender community. You might find this graphic helpful:

Can’t see the pics. And admit to certain amount of clumsyness re my posts on thread. Twitter fucks ne off. I’m cis het male. with general live and let live attitude. But fibding the whole deliberate gender id ferocity, adherence and or, rejection thereof confusing

Just chucking stufff, questions in as way of learning. Maybe makes me a TERF. Maybe a liberal goof. Gender roles are bullshit though. Waste of a person’s potential.
/pub phone waffle

Articulation later...

 

[Sea Star]

This is a tactic often used by the right when they are trying to make racist or homophobic or misogynist views acceptable in places where they know they will be met with strong opposition if they argue their views openly. “I’m not saying that there’s a link between race and IQ, necessarily but I think we should be able to debate scientific questions openly and without people being shouted down” etc.

Quite often I've assumed a far right person to be a TERF because of what they say to me - and only realised my mistake when i checked their account - that's how similar they sound when asking questions that they don;t need answers to to a trans woman. How the far right transphobes approach trans now seems to be much in the same vein as how they approached LGB except now they try to appear LGB friendly while attempting to persuade LGB people to reject the T. I see people falling for it too, sadly.

 

[Sea Star]

uh ho

 

[Sea Star]

What’s difference between trans sexual and trans gender? I’ve drawn possibly an arbitry distinction But are people using the terms interchangeably?.

transsexual is a much more medical term, pretty much referring to someone who has undergone or wants what used to be called sex change surgery. Transgender was an attempt to move away from defining trans people by surgery alone and to make it much more inclusive -though how inclusive is still hotly debated.

 

[8ball]

Currently orthodoxy is that transsexuals are part of the transgender community. You might find this graphic helpful:

Taking the yellow text at the bottom literally, that would seem to cover a hell of a lot of people.

 

[Sea Star]

The defenders of the New Orthodoxy get in a real bind when any of this stuff comes up in debate. On the one hand it’s absolutely part of the orthodoxy itself that to debate with “transphobia” is by definition transphobic so the only response they’re really allowed is to chant simplistic mantras and slurs at anyone who isn’t fully signed up. But on the other hand they can see how this alienates the unconverted or ‘ignorant’ majority outside of their tiny political bubbles so they feel obliged to join debate.

meanwhile, back on planet earth....

 

[Sea Star]

Taking the yellow text at the bottom literally, that would seem to cover a hell of a lot of people.

I'm a transsexual and I'm very much also transgender. Who said i wasn't?
As for that graphic, not something I'd agree with at all. Not sure who would other than the person who produced it.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Taking the yellow text at the bottom literally, that would seem to cover a hell of a lot of people.

Yes. I would say so. The Wikipedia entry seems to back it up.

 

[Sea Star]

Wow! TERFs not pro abortion anyone? Yes - just why are they trying to cause a split in the Irish feminist movement right now? Hmmmmm.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The fact that IQ tests have a cultural bias, such that they discriminate against minorities seems like a legitimate subject for debate to me, depending on who raises it and how. Surely, it's not the topic that's verboten, but the motivation?

You ever seen anyone raise that question from anything other than an already-racist pov? I haven't.

There's a decent parallel between the Bell Curve nonsense and some of the theories brought up on this thread.

The 'science' behind the Bell Curve's conclusions has been thoroughly debunked, to such an extent that the authors of that racist piece of drivel almost did us a favour by collecting the data to help debunk their conclusions. The conclusions they reached are entirely untenable once you've been through the debunking - we had a thread on it here a few years ago linking to the various ways that the data should be analysed - so much so that we are able to claim the opposite with a huge degree of confidence based on that very same data: there is no link between race and intelligence.

It is similar on here with Blanchard's mad - and at root homophobic, among other prejudices - theories about transgender. Anyone still clinging to those theories, or even just posing them as a topic of discussion, if they have also read the debunking, is either being dishonest or experiencing a huge degree of cognitive dissonance due to the unacknowledged fact that they really really really want it to be true.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

meanwhile, back on planet earth....

It's all getting a bit Black Mirror, I feel as if I refused an implant at some point.

Yes. I would say so. The Wikipedia entry seems to back it up.

Albeit with words like "may" and "infrequently"

 

[Magnus McGinty]

is it peer reviewed tho?

You used to agree with materislist concepts of oppression.

 

[8ball]

Anyone still clinging to those theories, or even just posing them as a topic of discussion, if they have also read the debunking, is either being dishonest or experiencing a huge degree of cognitive dissonance due to the unacknowledged fact that they really really really want it to be true.

Confirmation bias is a powerful thing.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Albeit with words like "may" and "infrequently"

Well yes. I stated already in this thread that there is a problem with definitions and people talking past each other. Particularly because no one can say anything concrete.

As a note:

"May" does not mean "infrequently", and "infrequently" does not mean "incorrectly".

 

[Magnus McGinty]

For me it’s this:

Supporting feminism based on improving the material conditions of women as a class furthers the struggle for socialism.

The opposing argument is bolstering individualism and liberalism.

In case anyone wondered.

 

[smokedout]

Tara Wood has been charged with 'assault by beating' and will be appearing at Westminster Magistrate's Court on Feb 15th.

Not quite as serious as the ABH that Miranda Yardley claimed she'd been charged with then. I think some people have been lying so long they've forgotten to tell the truth.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

"infrequently" does not mean "incorrectly".

Thanks. Though I am not sure any word has a preordained definition we are struggling to unearth

 

[Sea Star]

But Trans, albeit facing struggles of their own, haven’t faced the struggles that women have. It isn’t just about looking like or thinking like a woman (whatever that is). It’s material struggles.

I just don't know how to keep rebutting ignorant crap like this. But really - trans people die younger than any other group of people, have serious mental health issues caused by the situation we're in, a high suicide rate, comparable to people who live in oppressive regimes, are often considered unemployable just because they are trans, and so are more likely to be in poverty, more likely to be homeless (and get treated like shit, often excluded from shelters when homeless), more likely to be sexually assaulted than cis women and with almost no provision for care if we are. Many of us end up stuck in abusive relationships with no means to escape. We often get stuck in this situation that while we live as one gender, we only need a small thing to wrong in our lives for us to end up relying on others who then may misgender us, reject us, treat us as a different gender where we may be harmed. The right to gender based protections that most women of my generation have taken for granted are just not there for trans women. And yet we are subject to misogyny, sexism, transphophobia and homophobia, which can and does kill people. I'm just gobsmacked that you think we have no material struggles.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

For me it’s this:

Supporting feminism based on improving the material conditions of women as a class furthers the struggle for socialism.

The opposing argument is bolstering individualism and liberalism.

In case anyone wondered.

By opposing argument do you mean improving the material conditions of transwomen and men?

 

[crossthebreeze]

Wow! TERFs not pro abortion anyone? Yes - just why are they trying to cause a split in the Irish feminist movement right now? Hmmmmm.

I don't like or agree with Janice Raymond, and I think that abortion pills are important in certain situations, but i don't think the text linked to in that tweet can in any way be described as pro forced birth/anti-abortion. It talks positively about suction abortions and the last line is a concern that these type of abortion services are under threat. I can't see that being concerned about the safety or efficacy of a drug or cynical of pharmaceutical companies motives is the same as wanting people to suffer from the condition that the drug has been developed to relieve.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

uh ho

View attachment 126021

The TERFs in Britain have an astonishing level of access to the mainstream right wing media for a small group that endlessly and bitterly complains that they are “silenced”. I’m sure that any broadcaster choosing to make a documentary with Dr Radfem about trans issues is looking to make a balanced and nuanced film...

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I might not be understanding ting, but this seems clear to me:


"Materialism. ... Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that Matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all things, including mental aspects and consciousness, are results of material interactions"

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I don't like or agree with Janice Raymond, and I think that abortion pills are important in certain situations, but i don't think the text linked to in that tweet can in any way be described as pro forced birth/anti-abortion. It talks positively about suction abortions and the last line is a concern that these type of abortion services are under threat. I can't see that being concerned about the safety or efficacy of a drug or cynical of pharmaceutical companies motives is the same as wanting people to suffer from the condition that the drug has been developed to relieve.

Yes, the piece is scaremongering about an important method of abortion, but it’s not doing so from a lifer perspective.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I just don't know how to keep rebutting ignorant crap like this. But really - trans people die younger than any other group of people, have serious mental health issues caused by the situation we're in, a high suicide rate, comparable to people who live in oppressive regimes, are often considered unemployable just because they are trans, and so are more likely to be in poverty, more likely to be homeless (and get treated like shit, often excluded from shelters when homeless), more likely to be sexually assaulted than cis women and with almost no provision for care if we are. Many of us end up stuck in abusive relationships with no means to escape. We often get stuck in this situation that while we live as one gender, we only need a small thing to wrong in our lives for us to end up relying on others who then may misgender us, reject us, treat us as a different gender where we may be harmed. The right to gender based protections that most women of my generation have taken for granted are just not there for trans women. And yet we are subject to misogyny, sexism, transphophobia and homophobia, which can and does kill people. I'm just gobsmacked that you think we have no material struggles.

I haven’t said you have no material struggles. But the fact you place you place your identity struggle above any class struggle proves the point I was making.

 

[Sea Star]

Yes, the piece is scaremongering about an important method of abortion, but it’s not doing so from a lifer perspective.

ok - i stand corrected.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I might not be understanding ting, but this seems clear to me:


"Materialism. ... Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that Matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all things, including mental aspects and consciousness, are results of material interactions"

Wer’re All separate now. Individuals with their own materialist struggles.

 

[Athos]

You ever seen anyone raise that question from anything other than an already-racist pov? I haven't.

There's a decent parallel between the Bell Curve nonsense and some of the theories brought up on this thread.

The 'science' behind the Bell Curve's conclusions has been thoroughly debunked, to such an extent that the authors of that racist piece of drivel almost did us a favour by collecting the data to help debunk their conclusions. The conclusions they reached are entirely untenable once you've been through the debunking - we had a thread on it here a few years ago linking to the various ways that the data should be analysed - so much so that we are able to claim the opposite with a huge degree of confidence based on that very same data: there is no link between race and intelligence.

It is similar on here with Blanchard's mad - and at root homophobic, among other prejudices - theories about transgender. Anyone still clinging to those theories, or even just posing them as a topic of discussion, if they have also read the debunking, is either being dishonest or experiencing a huge degree of cognitive dissonance due to the unacknowledged fact that they really really really want it to be true.

Yeah, the cultural bias in IQ testing has been raised from an anti-racist perspective, by posters here, recently. I don't think the topic is taboo. Nothing wrong with discussing it, per se; just when the motivation is dodgy. I think sometimes the trans activist backlash against some legitimate debate misses this. But I accept that this is probably largely the fault of bigots who don't approach the issue with good faith. I guess when you've been attacked a few times, it's hard not to suspect the worst of people who disagree; similarly, for women who've been on the end of violence by males, I guess it's natural to suspect people born and socialised as males.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Wer’re All separate now. Individuals with their own materialist struggles.

How does your reasoning apply to women as a class but not transgender people? Genuine question, in good humour.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I haven’t said you have no material struggles. But the fact you place you place your identity struggle above any class struggle proves the point I was making.

How does she do this, and why don't you beat the feminists on here with the same stick?