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Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

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But Trans, albeit facing struggles of their own, haven’t faced the struggles that women have. It isn’t just about looking like or thinking like a woman (whatever that is). It’s material struggles.
 
MochaSoul said:
You can think whatever you want about the article. I was referring to the holier than thou attitude inherent in only pointing out the worst of so called TERF's on twitter as somehow nastier than trans activists when there are plenty of examples of trans activism leading to as terrible consequences as the ending of a longstanding bookfair, to give yet another example.

In this thread, for example, every tactic is employed to get away from discussing very valid points of concern, from picking on bits of posts subjectively deemed unsavoury to somehow escape actually discussing the others, to wholesale dismissal on the flimsiest of grounds. There are people who only come in to snipe at other people or insult them. Frequently people seem to deliberately to miss the points actually made as if they can only read what they want to read (see my very first encounter with HoratioCuthbert which included Rutita1 asking me a question I had already addressed; my last with smokedout and Sea Star 's last to kabbes ).

Anyway those are just examples and this is a mere microcosm of what's going on out there from what I can see, albeit with a lot less trolling, and my own perception is that there are a lot of people invested in not having a proper debate which heightens my suspicion that there may be more to this than meets the eye. Other factors don't help. Off the top of my head: that some proponents of the change to self-ID in AWSs in the Labour Party (some of whom involved in the TERF witchhunt and in urging CLP's to expel anyone who may disagree with self-ID) have also been longstanding opponents of AWSs in the first place; that parents worried about GD dysphoria therapy are dismissed as conspiraloons and then reading this which includes further info links which help to work out their fundamentals as I did this morning; seeing trans people dismissed as self-haters, the equivalent of traitors and tokens of TERFs as I have in this very thread when they don't toe the "genderology" line; the conflation of criticism of the ideology with hatred (which always reminds me of 2002/3 criticism of the plans to invade Iraq being equated to treason in the US) and everyone making similar criticisms being automatically said to be allied with the worst haters; the fact that people who have personal accounts of transitioning and detransioning having to give their testimonies in anonymity;

I was listening to people whose families were torn apart by a police state before I read my first political book. Some were little older than my mum (who had me quite young herself). It's really hard not to see undertones of a very uncomfortable form of authoritarianism here especially when I read of people conducting witch hunts in a political party. Why is it necessary to go so overboard regarding the rights of any group of people. I'll keep asking questions and trying to find out. But I don't think I'll do it here.
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The defenders of the New Orthodoxy get in a real bind when any of this stuff comes up in debate. On the one hand it’s absolutely part of the orthodoxy itself that to debate with “transphobia” is by definition transphobic so the only response they’re really allowed is to chant simplistic mantras and slurs at anyone who isn’t fully signed up. But on the other hand they can see how this alienates the unconverted or ‘ignorant’ majority outside of their tiny political bubbles so they feel obliged to join debate.

The tension between the two poles leads to the sort of chronic dishonesty you’ve highlighted and often means it all gets kind of weird at some point - case in point, the outbreak of kids-in-the-back-row sniggering on the last few pages; you can almost feel the nervous tension bursting out. Face? Bovvered? Am I?
 
HoratioCuthbert said:
Yes, but I took it in good faith and assumed you didn't really think being trans is just thinking or looking a bit like a woman, and perhaps just had a clumsy way of talking.
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I talk fine. And I’m fine with people identifying how they choose. But the discussion was about feminism specifically. That is steeped in improving material conditions for women based on women’s struggles as you well know.
 
co-op said:
The tension between the two poles leads to the sort of chronic dishonesty you’ve highlighted and often means it all gets kind of weird at some point - case in point, the outbreak of kids-in-the-back-row sniggering on the last few pages; you can almost feel the nervous tension bursting out. Face? Bovvered? Am I?
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I think you should factor the general posting and humour style of particular participants into any analysis of that moment in the thread.

I wont speak for anyone else but personally I'm usually ready to be silly, flippant, playful etc without much notice, and in stark contrast to what the mood may have been like just moments before. Just like happens in real life. And despite the fact I am usually in tedious nerd mode.

Yes sometimes tension is involved, or difficult themes, just like with gallows humour. But there is plenty else going on too, and not everyone picks up on every aspect of it. Its certainly not just for when things have gone impossibly weird or dishonest.
 
xenon said:
And you infer what from this?
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That Tunks is not some innocent who was just asking questions and got attacked for it. She’s a political activist with firmly held views on this subject which she was presenting as questions or a call for debate for tactical reasons. Which is exactly the same bad faith approach used by people on her side of the discussion here, who in fact have their minds made up but know that their views if clearly expressed will arouse hostility.

This is a tactic often used by the right when they are trying to make racist or homophobic or misogynist views acceptable in places where they know they will be met with strong opposition if they argue their views openly. “I’m not saying that there’s a link between race and IQ, necessarily but I think we should be able to debate scientific questions openly and without people being shouted down” etc.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
That Tunks is not some innocent who was just asking questions and got attacked for it. She’s a political activist with firmly held views on this subject which she was presenting as questions or a call for debate for tactical reasons. Which is exactly the same bad faith approach used by people on her side of the discussion here, who in fact have their minds made up but know that their views if clearly expressed will arouse hostility.

This is a tactic often used by the right when they are trying to make racist or homophobic or misogynist views acceptable in places where they know they will be met with strong opposition if they argue their views openly. “I’m not saying that there’s a link between race and IQ, necessarily but I think we should be able to debate scientific questions openly and without people being shouted down” etc.
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The fact that IQ tests have a cultural bias, such that they discriminate against minorities seems like a legitimate subject for debate to me, depending on who raises it and how. Surely, it's not the topic that's verboten, but the motivation?
 
What’s difference between trans sexual and trans gender? I’ve drawn possibly an arbitry distinction But are people using the terms interchangeably?

E2a

People shouldbefree to expresstheir gender identity how they wishAFAIC.
 
Here Pengaleng, Sea Star, you are officially an ideology. How does that feel? Indeed, how would you know you were one? maybe Bungle kanes!
xenon said:
What’s difference between trans sexual and trans gender? I’ve drawn possibly an arbitry distinction possibly. But are people using the terms interchangeably?
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Some are, some are very specific as to the definitions. It pays to keep an open mind on what people might mean, dogmatists are like vegans anyway, if they want you to know they are specifically trying to distance themselves from certain language they will soon tell you. Google the terms.
 
xenon said:
What’s difference between trans sexual and trans gender? I’ve drawn possibly an arbitry distinction possibly. But are people using the terms interchangeably?
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Currently orthodoxy is that transsexuals are part of the transgender community. You might find this graphic helpful:

tumblr_lghi5oxjt71qciiulo1_1280.jpg
 
From Wikipedia (transgender entry) :

Transgender people are sometimes called transsexual if they desire medical assistance to transition from one sex to another. Transgender is also an umbrella term: in addition to including people whose gender identity is the opposite of their assigned sex (trans men and trans women), it may include people who are not exclusively masculine or feminine (people who are genderqueer or non-binary, including bigender, pangender, genderfluid, or agender).[2][4][5]Other definitions of transgender also include people who belong to a third gender, or conceptualize transgender people as a third gender.[6][7] Infrequently, the term transgenderis defined very broadly to include cross-dressers,[8] regardless of their gender identity
 
HoratioCuthbert said:
Here Pengaleng, Sea Star, you are officially an ideology. How does that feel? Indeed, how would you know you were one? maybe Bungle kanes!


Some are, some are very specific as to the definitions. It pays to keep an open mind on what people might mean, dogmatists are like vegans anyway, if they want you to know they are specifically trying to distance themselves from certain language they will soon tell you. Google the terms.
Click to expand...

Whimsical essences of something.
 
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