Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Nigel Irritable]

Give over. She’s an adult politician who has pulled a number of deliberately provacative stunts and is reaping the benefit of doing so.

Typical IDPol crybully crap - attack and then burst into tears when called on it.

If TERFs hadn’t fed her to the right wing press as anti-trans shock of the week, she would be as obscure as the thousands of other Labour branch officials. You are well aware that nobody has heard of 99.9% of Labour branch officers and that nobody is systematically going through their old tweets in order to attack them. This is happening to Madigan because transphobes have fixated on her as a hate figure. It takes a certain shamelessness to insist that she’s a public figure for any other reason.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

She's at the epicentre today because she's been in on the organising of a list of people she wants to get expelled from the Labour Party. Nearly all of them women naturally, because that's what a Women's Officer ought to be doing in your Brave New World.

"So how are you going to approach the role of women's officer?"
"Expel all women who disagree with me."

 

[elbows]

Is this common ground with you as someone who is trans, who disagrees with my position on trans issues and considers my views on trans issue to be antithetical, or as someone who is not trans, who considers my views on trans issue to be antithetical? Just to be clear?

I am not trans. However I wouldnt go throwing words like antithetical around too readily, or I would at least narrow that sort of judgement down to certain very specific things. Your position is complicated and I dont want to erase all the detail just because there are a couple of glaring areas where antithetical does seem the appropriate term.

One of the frustrating things about this thread is that the whole trans debate is painted in 'all or nothing', or 'black and white' terms, and disagreement is reframed as hate. This happens on both sides, as I stated earlier in this thread apropos of Lily Madigan.

Although this thread frequently becomes polarised, there is no way I could describe this thread as failing because of exclusively black & white thinking. A hell of a lot of the disagreement is in far greyer areas than that.

I'm interested on whether you believe these positions are pro- or anti-trans.

In a vacuum, I dont consider them anti-trans. I dont consider you anti-trans, but I do think some of your stances are problematic to say the least. Especially when many of those positions are presently seized on by people and groups that I very much consider to be persuing agendas that are at best misguided and damaging to a variety of groups, at worst frequently powered by the sort of anti-trans venom that does exist. If I focus excessively on my revulsion towards pronoun abuse and talk about 'blokes in dresses' it's because I've seen what venom often powers such deliberate choices of language, the deliberately intended harm.

HOWEVER I have no problem with women naming and identifying transgender male sex offenders/or convicted of violence against girls or women, who are 'identifying as women' and thus hiding their male identity. I make no apology for this, and would reaffirm my belief that men convicted of sexual or other violent acts should not be allowed to change their legal sex.

Well I certainly dont believe that revelations about a persons violent past should not happen if a transition occurred somewhere in their history.

For me 'violent acts' is a rather broad category and I tend to believe that safe-guards should be way more granular than that. I believe in the proper assessment of the risk that individuals pose, with appropriate measures. A lot of problems in legal areas stem from our need to have simplistic rules applied too broadly. Systemic failures and lack of nuance end up leaving people at risk, so I dont think I am 'soft' on these issues, although I am aware that well-meaning tinkering along these lines could also leave people at risk and I dont want that.

As far as hate goes, pronouns, 'deadnaming' and pointing out I'm male/am a man come nowhere near this.

I'm not really interesting in disregarding certain forms of hate just because they dont make someones top 10.

 

[Shechemite]

If TERFs hadn’t fed her to the right wing press as anti-trans shock of the week, she would be as obscure as the thousands of other Labour branch officials. You are well aware that nobody has heard of 99.9% of Labour branch officers and that nobody is systematically going through their old tweets in order to attack them. This is happening to Madigan because transphobes have fixated on her as a hate figure. It takes a certain shamelessness to insist that she’s a public figure for any other reason.

So nowt to do with her own choices. It’s all everyone else’s fault.

 

[trashpony]

If TERFs hadn’t fed her to the right wing press as anti-trans shock of the week, she would be as obscure as the thousands of other Labour branch officials. You are well aware that nobody has heard of 99.9% of Labour branch officers and that nobody is systematically going through their old tweets in order to attack them. This is happening to Madigan because transphobes have fixated on her as a hate figure. It takes a certain shamelessness to insist that she’s a public figure for any other reason.

Oh come on. You can't possibly believe that.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

She's at the epicentre today because she's been in on the organising of a list of people she wants to get expelled from the Labour Party. Nearly all of them women naturally, because that's what a Women's Officer ought to be doing in your Brave New World.

How shocking that a young woman who has been fed to the right wing press by TERFs, then obsessively monitored and continuously bullied by TERFs, then seen TERFs raise money to sue her party to try to take a right away from her, might want to see those TERFs thrown out of that party.

 

[co-op]

It takes a certain shamelessness to insist that she’s a public figure for any other reason.

Her obviously stratospheric level of ambition and self-promotion has totally passed you by then.

 

[co-op]

Oh come on. You can't possibly believe that.

Nope that's obviously what he believes - everything, everything that goes wrong in our beautiful world is down to the TERFs

 

[Nigel Irritable]

So nowt to do with her own choices. It’s all everyone else’s fault.

No, it’s not everyone else’s fault. It’s quite specifically the fault of the TERFs who are obsessed with her and their friends in the right wing press who monstered her.

 

[MochaSoul]

How shocking that a young woman who has been fed to the right wing press by TERFs, then obsessively monitored and continuously bullied by TERFs, then seen TERFs raise money to sue her party to try to take a right away from her, might want to see those TERFs thrown out of that party.

Authoritarianism lesson #1 wholly unlearned then. She's not fit for political office in a democratic country.

 

[8ball]

Her obviously stratospheric level of ambition and self-promotion has totally passed you by then.

Hmmm. Might be a bit of both going on.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Nope that's obviously what he believes - everything, everything that goes wrong in our beautiful world is down to the TERFs

I realize that you would prefer it if your opponents really did think that TERFs were enormously influential, but I’ve been pretty clear on this thread that it’s an ultra marginal movement with little real world power, even in Britain it’s epicentre. Most of the damage TERFs actually do consists of bullying trans women on the internet and feeding shock stories to the right wing press.

 

[co-op]

There’s a sort of tragedy in people like this responding to a growth in the numbers of younger women who are able to be open about their sexual attraction to other women primarily by feeling indignation that those younger women aren’t interested in replicating the communities and rules that some of their elders developed.

Here's a good example of the sort of cool and groovy modern way that young people get to deal with their sexuality; The Nigel Way.

I hated her guts at the time: A trans-desister and her mom tell their story

How can anyone read this and think that older lesbians aren't entitled to question the way modern trans theory is impacting on young people? Or that the very act of questioning is 'hateful'?

 

[bimble]

.. TERFs raise money to sue her party to try to take a right away from her

What right is that? Self id is not law here (yet). Lily doesn't have a certificate so is not legally a woman. The all women shortlists (legally governed by the equalities act) are defined as about sex, that old fashioned notion, and not gender identity anyway.

 

[co-op]

I realize that you would prefer it if your opponents really did think that TERFs were enormously influential, but I’ve been pretty clear on this thread that it’s an ultra marginal movement with little real world power, even in Britain it’s epicentre. Most of the damage TERFs actually do consists of bullying trans women on the internet and feeding shock stories to the right wing press.

I was being sarcastic Nigel. You've made the point about how irrelevant anyone who disagrees with you is multiple times, you must have said it 20 or 30 times on this thread. It didn't work, maybe on attempt 31 suddenly it'll come true?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I am not trans.

I know. LOL.

However I wouldnt go throwing words like antithetical around too readily... Your position is complicated and I dont want to erase all the detail just because there are a couple of glaring areas where antithetical does seem the appropriate term.

Hmmmmm.

Although this thread frequently becomes polarised, there is no way I could describe this thread as failing because of exclusively black & white thinking. A hell of a lot of the disagreement is in far greyer areas than that.

Black and white thinking is a specific term, it means adopting a view that presents a false dichotomy of 'you're either with us or against us' and is a method used by both adults and children in an attempt to present a position that makes the subject take a side.

In a vacuum, I dont consider them anti-trans. I dont consider you anti-trans, but I do think some of your stances are problematic to say the least.

Which views, and why?

Especially when many of those positions are presently seized on by people and groups that I very much consider to be persuing agendas that are at best misguided and damaging to a variety of groups, at worst frequently powered by the sort of anti-trans venom that does exist. If I focus excessively on my revulsion towards pronoun abuse and talk about 'blokes in dresses' it's because I've seen what venom often powers such deliberate choices of language, the deliberately intended harm.

Please find a single instance of my words being used to attack someone. This is not why I do what I do.

Well I certainly dont believe that revelations about a persons violent past should not happen if a transition occurred somewhere in their history.

Sometimes we need to be clear a crime was perpetrated by a man, not a woman: eg rape, child molestation, other sexual crimes. We should be looking to protect females, not the feelings of a few.

For me 'violent acts' is a rather broad category and I tend to believe that safe-guards should be way more granular than that. I believe in the proper assessment of the risk that individuals pose, with appropriate measures. A lot of problems in legal areas stem from our need to have simplistic rules applied too broadly. Systemic failures and lack of nuance end up leaving people at risk, so I dont think I am 'soft' on these issues, although I am aware that well-meaning tinkering along these lines could also leave people at risk and I dont want that.

Assault and battery on the human anatomy, sexual crimes, etc.

I'm not really interesting in disregarding certain forms of hate just because they dont make someones top 10.

Please define 'hate'.

Thanks - sorry to be short, still working argh.

 

[Vintage Paw]

What right is that? Self id is not law here (yet). Lily doesn't have a certificate so is not legally a woman. The all women shortlists (legally governed by the equalities act) are defined as about sex, that old fashioned notion, and not gender identity anyway.

Do you think the presence of a certificate would stop the hatred against Lily?

 

[elbows]

I know. LOL.

Dont waste my time asking the question then.

Which views, and why?

I feel no need to answer this at all, we've been over them all in the thread. I didnt tackle them all, since others rubbished them far more effectively than I could.

Please find a single instance of my words being used to attack someone. This is not why I do what I do.

I acknowledged when I first started talking to you here weeks ago that your pronoun stuff was at least consistent with your clearly stated views. I'm sure you are aware that many others are not indulging in the same language with quite the same motivations and ideological standpoint as you though. Having a common starting point in regards to whether transwomen are women doesnt mean the destination they have in mind is quite the one you envisage though, though I dearly hope the political landscape does not evolve to the point where you ever find this out the hard way.

Sometimes we need to be clear a crime was perpetrated by a man, not a woman: eg rape, child molestation, other sexual crimes. We should be looking to protect females, not the feelings of a few.

This basic sentiment can be used as part of many disparate recipes. And I would certainly call the health inspectors in if I found 'false dichotomy regarding competing rights' on the restaurant menu.

Please define 'hate'.

No, I made my point, if youd like to expand on it or argue with it then please do it directly, dont waste my time with this shit.

 

[bimble]

Do you think the presence of a certificate would stop the hatred against Lily?

No. But do you get why I questioned Nigel’s thing about her having a right to a place on all women shortlists? Legally currently she doesn’t have any such right, far as i can tell. Which may be why the planned announcement from labour nec didn’t happen today ?

 

[elbows]

No. But do you get why I questioned Nigel’s thing about her having a right to a place on all women shortlists? Legally currently she doesn’t have any such right, far as i can tell. Which may be why the planned announcement from labour nec didn’t happen today ?

Someone else who is trans got onto a Labour AWS not so long ago, are you aware of that one? I'm afraid I forgot their name and have no link right now.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Her name is Heather Peto. She's the PPC for Rutland and Melton.

She has also been selected for the Jo Cox Women in Leadership scheme.

 

[bimble]

Someone else who is trans got onto a Labour AWS not so long ago, are you aware of that one? I'm afraid I forgot their name and have no link right now.

Yes , basically it’s like Labour have been doing a self Id policy (for all women shortlists).

 

[elbows]

Her name is Heather Peto. She's the PPC for Rutland and Melton.

She has also been selected for the Jo Cox Women in Leadership scheme.

Thanks for the info. And Lily applied for but was not successful in being selected for the Jo Cox Women in Leadership scheme I believe?

 

[Vintage Paw]

Yes , basically it’s like Labour have been doing a self Id policy (for all women shortlists).

You must realise the self-id thing is water-testing, right? Those pulling the levers of the anti-trans campaigns aren't especially bothered by self-id in and of itself, but want to ensure trans women aren't allowed on AWS even with legal recognition, don't want them holding positions that have anything to do with women, and ultimately don't want them recognised as women in public life at all. I'm sure not everyone who's involved in this debate on that side feels the same way, and I do understand where some of the (misguided) concern about self-id can come from. But those in control? Their agenda is far more sinister and hateful.

Or perhaps you do realise that.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Thanks for the info. And Lily applied for but was not successful in being selected for the Jo Cox Women in Leadership scheme I believe?

That's right.

 

[bimble]

I wasn’t making a judgement on it just pointing out that Nigel was mistaken when he described the fundraiser as trying to ‘take a right away from her’.

 

[elbows]

You must realise the self-id thing is water-testing, right? Those pulling the levers of the anti-trans campaigns aren't especially bothered by self-id in and of itself, but want to ensure trans women aren't allowed on AWS even with legal recognition, don't want them holding positions that have anything to do with women, and ultimately don't want them recognised as women in public life at all. I'm sure not everyone who's involved in this debate on that side feels the same way, and I do understand where some of the (misguided) concern about self-id can come from. But those in control? Their agenda is far more sinister and hateful.

Or perhaps you do realise that.

I have a sudden urge to totally subvert the lyrics to 'They're changing guards at Buckingham Palace'.

 

[Pickman's model]

Your contempt for lesbians and other women is quite something to behold.

Yeh. Your contempt for the truth is evident from your refusal to admit your error over prisoners' stats

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Dont waste my time asking the question then.

Although I admit my views are often adjacent to current vectors in trans culture, I always explain them and why; I think it has some bearing that I am someone who has lived this life. This does at least give me perspective and also depth of knowledge: I have seen trans politics evolve over thirty years and in that time I have seen transsexuals become marginalised more and more not just by the rise of 'transgender' people who don't approach assimilation etc in the way we do, and who in this process have declared a political war on women, but we are also marginalised by the very men who support the rank and file transgender activists, people like Nigel Irritable whose attitudes towards women should make everyone who claims to be a classic liberal or anywhere further to the left cringe: cultural regressivism is the new progressivism.

I have seen allies come and go: our allies were always the lesbians and other women, and the gay men, as well as straight men who wanted to show the world how progressive they are, now the men I see allied to transgender people are generally neo-liberal, authoritarian men who claim to be leftist and who claim to be into equality, as far as this suits them, who use transgender individuals as human shields for their own misogyny: they are the passive sexists and homophobes that in the 1970s and 1980s stood by while lesbians, gay men and transsexuals were culturally and legislatively ostracised.

As someone who is trans who has throughout my life moved within gay culture, I know who the real allies of trans people are, and I know full well that, come the inevitable backlash, men like you are the very men who will turn on us.

So, no. I do not accept your arguments.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I wasn’t making a judgement on it just pointing out that Nigel was mistaken when he described the fundraiser as trying to ‘take a right away from her’.

You acknowledged yourself a few posts later that the Labour Party was already allowing self-ID trans women the right to be considered for all women shortlists. The fundraiser was to sue the Labour Party to force it to remove this right.