Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Red Sky]

It's impossible to punch anyone with a baseball bat.

 

[Sea Star]

another view from a cis woman activist and trans ally.

What I want to point out is the similarity in tactics between the transmisogynists’ narrative, and tactics deployed successfully by Nazis. Our current face of Nazism–the alt right, neo-Nazis, the far right, whatever your style guide demands you call them–rather like to play the victim. When Richard Spencer got punched (lol) the Nazis were very keen to whine about it. When anti-fascist protesters come out to defend their communities, the Nazis, and their chum Donald Trump, are falling over themselves to denounce violence “on both sides”. Centrists are always eager to back up these narratives, because they love a good middle ground almost as much as they love pretending they’re not enablers of fascism.

This, of course, serves a purpose. It drags discussion away from “Nazis are bad, how can we stop them?” to “punching is bad”. It has been a Nazi tactic since Nazis were invented; Hitler rather liked to claim that he and his were victims of unprovoked violence from the people they wanted wiped out.

Now, transmisogynistic bigots have rather a lot in common with Nazis already. They both share an unhealthy fascination with trans people’s genitalia, where trans people pee, concern trolling about safety, and a general desire to see trans people eliminated entirely. They have been known to work together on certain projects, in particular surrounding “bathroom bills”. It seems, in their cosy discussion groups about how to ban trans people from public life, the transmisogynistic bigots and the Nazis have also been exchanging tactics.

What the transmisogynists want more than anything in the world right now is to stop talking about their repulsive ideology and their repugnant tactics, and talk about the merits and drawbacks of political violence. They want to draw sympathy from the gullible centre, who uncritically lap up victim-playing rhetoric, because centrists dislike impoliteness far more than they reject hate.

Let’s not let them.

Let us stay focused on why there was a protest in the first place.

 

[SpookyFrank]

so what we can take from this Frank is that you have had absolutely zero practical experience working with the trans activist community nor with modern identity politics activists... you choose to ignore the numerous articles detailing problems with callout culture, victimization of political opponents and you refuse to join the dots between these things and actually physical assaults immediately precursed by references to this language and from these groups.

shut the fuck and let people who actually have an interest in the world engage in some meaningful conversation please, without constantly interrupting with your adolescent A-level philosophy relativism?

On the contrary, I do know trans activists and they bear no resemblance to your characterisation of them. You can be a TERF gobshite without risking anything, without actually having any personal stake in the stuff you're talking about. Trans activists are not so lucky. They have to fight for rights and recognition and understanding, and against those who would take away what they've already achieved. It's not a fucking hobby.

 

[Das Uberdog]

so - this is the actual tone of what i see on Trans websites - if you're not cherry-picking that is.

This was posted by a trans woman - there's reams of this sort of thing being posted right now. Whoever threw the punch is not well loved by the community right now.

you know what, this post is ENTIRELY RIGHT. the trans activist movement needs to immediately disassociate itself from the actions of this individual and express sympathy with the woman who got hit.

 

[Sea Star]

Probably not until straight blokes are accused of transphobia for excluding female penis.

I just read "butch dyke trans woman" on this thread.

In normal speak that sounds like a gender conforming heterosexual male with the "gender identity" of female.

Lesbians with a penis?

That's an actual joke my dad used to make.

Leave that homophobia at the door.

Same sex attracted people 1) exist 2) aren't attracted to gender identities.

Lesbians don't have penises.
Gay men don't have vaginas.

Homosexuality is a sexual orientaion and protected under UK antidiscrimination laws.

This is exactly why sex needs to firmly remain a protected characteristic.

FFS.

way to go trying to tell gay people they aren't gay...

That to me is homophobia


and straight people that they must be gay because they're with a trans person? Really? I'll let my boyfriend know.

 

[Sea Star]

you know what, this post is ENTIRELY RIGHT. the trans activist movement needs to immediately disassociate itself from the actions of this individual

Has already happened, overwhelmingly. But, alas, we're not actually a hive mind or a dastardly conspiracy. Not every one can or will agree. Go figure! almost as if we're humans isn't it?

and express sympathy with the woman who got hit.

no.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Probably not until straight blokes are accused of transphobia for excluding female penis.

I just read "butch dyke trans woman" on this thread.

In normal speak that sounds like a gender conforming heterosexual male with the "gender identity" of female.

Lesbians with a penis?

That's an actual joke my dad used to make.

Leave that homophobia at the door.

Same sex attracted people 1) exist 2) aren't attracted to gender identities.

Lesbians don't have penises.
Gay men don't have vaginas.

Homosexuality is a sexual orientaion and protected under UK antidiscrimination laws.

This is exactly why sex needs to firmly remain a protected characteristic.

FFS.

Is this post available in coherent sentences?

 

[SpookyFrank]

you know what, this post is ENTIRELY RIGHT. the trans activist movement needs to immediately disassociate itself from the actions of this individual and express sympathy with the woman who got hit.

You clearly didn't read what I read. I read that punching this person was wrong because of the harm the backlash will do to trans people in general, and the ammunition it will give to bigots. That has nothing to do with sympathy for the woman who got punched.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Has already happened, overwhelmingly. But, alas, we're not actually a hive mind or a dastardly conspiracy. Not every one can or will agree. Go figure! almost as if we're humans isn't it?

I've seen too many mealy-mouthed defences of it both on facebook and on this thread than is healthy.

no.

i'm afraid you gotta. she's been gifted the moral high ground.

 

[Jonti]

Is this post available in coherent sentences?

AuntiStella asked about DNA and butch dyke trans woman

My guess, typically XY chromosomes. And human sexual behaviour is so multiferous and plastic genetics in general has nothing much to say.

 

[SpookyFrank]

AuntiStella asked about DNA and butch dyke trans woman

My guess, typically XY chromosomes. And human sexual behaviour is so multiferous and plastic genetics in general has nothing much to say.

Wasn't it you who brought up genetics though?

 

[Das Uberdog]

You clearly didn't read what I read. I read that punching this person was wrong because of the harm the backlash will do to trans people in general, and the ammunition it will give to bigots. That has nothing to do with sympathy for the woman who got punched.

it also said that the person in question punched a woman, who had already been a victim of patriarchal violence. it said we don't need more violence against women in this world.

 

[SpookyFrank]

it also said that the person in question punched a woman, who had already been a victim of patriarchal violence. it said we don't need more violence against women in this world.

So maybe an appeal to general human solidarity. Which, were it shared by all, would preclude the very existence of TERFdom.

 

[Jonti]

Wasn't it you who brought up genetics though?

As I recall, I mentioned to belboid that the transactivists were XY, when he demanded to know whether they were real women. This seemed to come as a surprise to him.

 

[Sea Star]

I think the plan was to discuss what it means to be a woman. Clearly a dangerous gathering in need of harassment and disruption.

this is how it was advertised. Doesn't sound like the innocent discussion of what being a woman is, that you said. Looks very much like it was a discussion about trans people and our rights - by two professional transphobes. Let's please stick to the facts.

ETA - i have to laugh at the images used to represent male and female here - gender stereotypes much?

 

[belboid]

As I recall, I mentioned to belboid that the transactivists were XY, when he demanded to know whether they were real women. This seemed to come as a surprise to him.

that's a bit of stretch. Actually, it's just not true, you are the one going on about 'real women' here. Yuck.

 

[Geri]

And deliberately misgendering people for dramatic effect is an abusive act as far as I'm concerned.

I do not know the identity of the attackers or how they identify. Therefore I can either say 'them' or 'him/her'. To say this is an abusive act is completely and utterly ludicrous. Get a grip of yourself.

 

[Sea Star]

As I recall, I mentioned to belboid that the transactivists were XY, when he demanded to know whether they were real women. This seemed to come as a surprise to him.

even that's not true. Even assuming that you are correct in your assumption that AMABs (assigned male at birth) are all XY and AFABs are all XX - which for this instance i will allow - there is at least one AFAB activist involved. why do you consistently leave them out? Is there an agenda? hmmm?

trans activists (is two words btw) could be XX, XY or any of the rarer combinations. You don't know.

 

[Jonti]

The Gender Recognition Act is certainly about what being a woman means.

It would be ridiculous to expect radical feminists not to want to discuss it among themselves.

 

[Jonti]

that's a bit of stretch. Actually, it's just not true, you are the one going on about 'real women' here. Yuck.

Linky? Please.

 

[Sea Star]

The Gender Recognition Act is certainly about what being a woman means.

It would be ridiculous to expect radical feminists not to want to discuss it among themselves.

trans people weren't excluded. They were invited. Most of us decided to stay away.

The gender recognition act is about transgender rights.

You seem to be implying that there are no trans women who are also radical feminists. Not true. You also seem to be implying that all radical feminists are TERFs. Not true.

Sure there's nothing to stop TERFs discussing this amongst themselves but this wasn't intended to be that - one of the speakers is a self identified transsexual and i know of at least two trans women who were asked to speak and declined.

But - without trans people present and included don't run away thinking that any kind of valid conclusion can be reached. Why exclude trans people from a discussion about trans unless you're trying to skew the discussion in some way? Explain.

 

[belboid]

Linky? Please.

You just wrote it. I have not used the phrase in this thread (as you claim).

 

[Jonti]

Where?

 

[SpookyFrank]

this is how it was advertised. Doesn't sound like the innocent discussion of what being a woman is, that you said. Looks very much like it was a discussion about trans people and our rights - by two professional transphobes. Let's please stick to the facts.

ETA - i have to laugh at the images used to represent male and female here - gender stereotypes much?

I do like how Miranda Yardley boasts that she's managed to get herself published on Miranda Yardley dot com.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

this is how it was advertised. Doesn't sound like the innocent discussion of what being a woman is, that you said. Looks very much like it was a discussion about trans people and our rights - by two professional transphobes. Let's please stick to the facts.

It doesn't look like an unreasonable poster. Given that the point of such debates is not to change the views of other speakers so much as to present your view and problems you identify in their arguments to others, is there not merit in engaging with your political opponents and their ideas?

 

[Shechemite]

trans people weren't excluded. They were invited. Most of us decided to stay away.

The gender recognition act is about transgender rights.

Does the act, and concepts of gender more broadly, have any implications for anyone else's rights?

 

[chilango]

I do like how Miranda Yardley boasts that she's managed to get herself published on Miranda Yardley dot com.

I noticed that. A rare smile in this thread.

 

[Shechemite]

ETA - i have to laugh at the images used to represent male and female here - gender stereotypes much?

You aren't really this obtuse are you?

 

[Sea Star]

It doesn't look like an unreasonable poster. Given that the point of such debates is not to change the views of other speakers so much as to present your view and problems you identify in their arguments to others, is there not merit in engaging with your political opponents and their ideas?

Just trying to establish that this was clearly about trans. The fact the Julia Long and Myranda Yardley are involved and are discussing trans from their skewed viewpoint is why it was provocative. Like having a discussion about race led by a known white supremacist.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I do not know the identity of the attackers or how they identify. Therefore I can either say 'them' or 'him/her'. To say this is an abusive act is completely and utterly ludicrous. Get a grip of yourself.

Why did you choose to eschew 'them' (which requires less typing) in favour of 'him/her' which is not standard English? I only ask because transphobes seem to be fond of the latter, and similarly loaded and unnecessary constructions such as 'him(?)'.