Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[snadge]

Probably not until straight blokes are accused of transphobia for excluding female penis.

Genuine question, what the fuck is a female penis?

 

[Sea Star]

Wasn't it you who brought up genetics though?

it was this which has been thoroughly debunked by now.

No you muppet. If you born a male you have XY chromosomes; and if female XX chromosomes. That's just the way things are.

 

[Sea Star]

Genuine question, what the fuck is a female penis?

i'm not going to go there.

 

[Jonti]

So what would it take for a man to qualify as a woman, under the proposed Act?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Genuine question, what the fuck is a female penis?

Why does an organ need a gender at all?

 

[SpookyFrank]

So what would it take for a man to qualify as a woman, under the proposed Act?

There's an internet you know, where you can look up this sort of thing for yourself.

 

[andysays]

Come off it. If you want to address an issue that is faced by a bunch of people, your first port of call is to talk to the people involved, not to assume you know what their problem is and come up with a solution for them on that basis without even asking them. You're interested in science. Does that sound scientific to you? Does it sound like an approach that is likely to produce the correct answer?

I'm slightly loathe to comment on a thread which is being conducted in so acrimonious a fashion, but it seems to me that issues of gender identity are something we all have a personal interest in, given their significance in all our lives and in pretty much all our social interactions.

This is true whether we identify as men or women, trans or cis, or indeed whether we would rather not have to chose between such identities at all.

Whilst some people on this thread and in the wider world have particular experiences of oppression/discrimination as a result of their particular gender identity, that doesn't, or shouldn't, mean that the rest of us are obliged to refrain from expressing our opinions on the generality of gender identity simply because that opinion might not be shared by those with, eg, a trans identity.

And it looks to me like both you and AuntiStella are doing just this in your responses to Jonti here, whatever I might think of some of the content of some of their other posts.

 

[Jonti]

There's an internet you know, where you can look up this sort of thing for yourself.

Indeed there is, but this is a discussion board. What do you think the requirement should be?

 

[Sea Star]

tbh i don't know why a man would even want to qualify as a woman? Does this happen?

 

[Sea Star]

Indeed there is, but this is a discussion board. What do you think the requirement should be?

what's the point of speculating? I don't know the answer. Who here does?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Just trying to establish that this was clearly about trans. The fact the Julia Long and Myranda Yardley are involved and are discussing trans from their skewed viewpoint is why it was provocative. Like having a discussion about race led by a known white supremacist.

Yes it's about trans women and their inclusion/exclusion. This thread illustrates that there are many cis women who are to a greater or lesser extent conflicted on this point (and also many who are not). Somehow somewhere it is a debate worth having. I don't think it's fair or productive to dismiss it all as bigotry.

 

[Sea Star]

Whilst some people on this thread and in the wider world have particular experiences of oppression/discrimination as a result of their particular gender identity, that doesn't, or shouldn't, mean that the rest of us are obliged to refrain from expressing our opinions on the generality of gender identity simply because that opinion might not be shared by those with, eg, a trans identity.

And it looks to me like both you and AuntiStella are doing just this in your responses to Jonti here, whatever I might think of some of the content of some of their other posts.

by cunning use of logic and answering points i suppose

seriously though - where? I've done nothing but indulge these opinions and am responding as honestly & as accurately as i can.

 

[Sea Star]

Yes it's about trans women and their inclusion/exclusion. This thread illustrates that there are many cis women who are to a greater or lesser extent conflicted on this point (and also many who are not). Somehow somewhere it is a debate worth having. I don't think it's fair or productive to dismiss it all as bigotry.

we can have it without involving those (ETA - a better word would have been centering. in my experience TERFs tend to exclude themselves from spaces where they have to argue against trans supporting cis women) who are intent on marginalising us though. Like I can have it on here without a problem if it's an honest debate. And indeed - its a debate that is going on in women's spaces everywhere right now.

This meeting was about those tiny number who have a problem with fair and honest debate and have set out to short circuit this and to appeal to bigotry to get us shut down.

Also and not related to the above except that this is what open minded debate looks like and these are views that TERFs seek to exclude:
i found this - another cis feminist take on trans women. For balance.

and this by a trans feminist

 

[snadge]

I suppose I have a dog in this race also, as a cancer survivor I have had both testicles removed ( 5 years apart) and was prescribed synthetic testosterone, due to horrendous mood swings I no longer bother with it, it has made me a lot more inwardly calmer ( on the synthetic testosterone I was either a seething mass of anger or ready to burst into tears at the slightest provocation). I now like my chilled inner self, the only down side being I'm just not bothered about sex or a relationship which doesn't bother me in the slightest.

In answer to SpookyFrank I have seen transgenders online referring to their girldicks with pride, quite a lot of the vocal ones seem to have no desire to transition and have a problem with straight men not wanting anything to do with them.

Now to me this is not an identity problem, it's just a sexual fetish.

 

[Arbeter Fraynd]

And all the while the middle class have a fight in a car park over labels, poverty murders continue.

the trans people I know are all involved in the struggle against murderous poverty. Also, the assumption that trans people are a) middle class and b) not affected by poverty is ridiculous and wrong

 

[Sea Star]

Use of "transgenders" is an instant warning of transphobic views about to be aired.

And i wasn't disapointed

Now to me this is not an identity problem, it's just a sexual fetish.

What am I supposed to do with that?

ETA - just one of the most clueless posts about trans I have ever seen.

even use of the word transition here - I'm sick of some cis people insisting that transition means surgery. It really doesn't Eg, I've transitioned but I'm not going to talk about my genitals to anyone. No-one's business. If i did talk about my genitals it's still no-one's business and still no indication of my status re transitioning or not.

For the record I know many trans women who haven't had SRS/GRS whatever you want to call it - and are with straight men. Not sure why that signifies a sexual fetish. Not sure I want to hear tbh.

 

[Jonti]

*You* are not supposed or expected to do anything with it.

 

[Shechemite]

Are you aware of how self-referential you are AuntiStella ?

 

[iona]

Jonti you've liked my post asking you to clarify something you said; are you going to reply to it?

 

[snadge]

Use of "transgenders" is an instant warning of transphobic views about to be aired.

And i wasn't disapointed



What am I supposed to do with that?

Way to selectively quote out of context.

So you are calling me transphobic?

 

[andysays]

by cunning use of logic and answering points i suppose

seriously though - where? I've done nothing but indulge these opinions and am responding as honestly & as accurately as i can.

TBH, I've seen very little use of logic and plenty of evasiveness from you in this thread, as in so many others. If you really believe otherwise, then that suggests to me that you're delusional.

Many of your posts have been such patently obvious bullshit, that I haven't bothered responding to them directly. Also because you made a huge point of telling me you were putting me on ignore sometime ago that I assumed you weren't even reading my posts.

But since you apparently are, can you explain the seeming contradiction in the two highlighted parts of this post?

trans people weren't excluded. They were invited. Most of us decided to stay away.

The gender recognition act is about transgender rights.

You seem to be implying that there are no trans women who are also radical feminists. Not true. You also seem to be implying that all radical feminists are TERFs. Not true.

Sure there's nothing to stop TERFs discussing this amongst themselves but this wasn't intended to be that - one of the speakers is a self identified transsexual and i know of at least two trans women who were asked to speak and declined.

But - without trans people present and included don't run away thinking that any kind of valid conclusion can be reached. Why exclude trans people from a discussion about trans unless you're trying to skew the discussion in some way? Explain.

This is merely one example of you trying to have it both ways, simultaneously stating that trans people decided for themselves to stay away (as they are obviously entitled to do) and then claiming that they have been excluded.

I have a certain amount of sympathy for you on a personal level, as your experiences and struggles with your own gender identity have clearly been very difficult, but in terms of your behaviour on numerous threads, your repeated insistance that your experience trumps all others and your blatant smearing of anyone who disagrees with you as transphobic, you're really a fucking liability as far as any serious or meaningful discussion goes.

 

[Jonti]

Just to clarify, what exactly do you mean when you say "sex roles" and how might your proposed "social response which allows people to be who they are in the body they were born with" work?

Sex roles or just what's expected of us as men or women. As for that social response, the best I can offer is a hope that the debate moves in that direction.

 

[Sea Star]

TBH, I've seen very little use of logic and plenty of evasiveness from you in this thread, as in so many others. If you really believe otherwise, then that suggests to me that you're delusional.

Many of your posts have been such patently obvious bullshit, that I haven't bothered responding to them directly. Also because you made a huge point of telling me you were putting me on ignore sometime ago that I assumed you weren't even reading my posts.

But since you apparently are, can you explain the seeming contradiction in the two highlighted parts of this post?


This is merely one example of you trying to have it both ways, simultaneously stating that trans people decided for themselves to stay away (as they are obviously entitled to do) and then claiming that they have been excluded.

I have a certain amount of sympathy for you on a personal level, as your experiences and struggles with your own gender identity have clearly been very difficult, but in terms of your behaviour on numerous threads, your repeated insistance that your experience trumps all others and your blatant smearing of anyone who disagrees with you as transphobic, you're really a fucking liability as far as any serious or meaningful discussion goes.

you're not the brightest spark are you? I'm putting you back on ignore.

 

[Sea Star]

oh God, it's relentless though. Can you see why i get sick of it all sometimes?

 

[andysays]

you're not the brightest spark are you? I'm putting you back on ignore.

Your response comes as no surprise, it's exactly what I would have expected. Indeed, I originally wrote, then deleted, the following final sentence in my post:

"I expect after you read this, you'll tell me you've put me back on ignore"

 

[Shechemite]

oh God, it's relentless though. Can you see why i get sick of it all sometimes?

People are allowed to challenge you Stella.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Genuine question, what the fuck is a female penis?

I've heard it bandied about before online. It's the logical conclusion of denying sex exists. The thinking goes like this.

"Sex is not important, but if my gender identity is female then I am female. That makes my body female and therefore my penis is female"

 

[PursuedByBears]

That's a joke, no?

 

[kabbes]

The idea that females "feel" a certain way and have a gender identity or "type of female brain" is a load of misogynist fucking shite IMO and you all know it.

It's so sad seeing it repeated as a thing on this forum.

It's the very notion that kept women from having the vote, and the increasing pink/blue genderisation of kids is going to be a huge fucking problem.

View attachment 115689

It's part of the same old conservatism and misogyny that has held women back for so long, no wonder it's the Tories heading this, and no wonder female children are increasingly becoming disphoric (as I was). No one likes being shoved into boxes.

The question "what is gender" (outside of ouf sex - which is observable, and which despite denial DOES exist- and is the cause of sexism) is a fucking valid one to ask seeing affects mainly women, and any proposed legislation will affect mainly women - who are already marginalised - with regard to current sex based protections.

No one seems to be able to define what "feeling like a woman" or having a "female gender identity" actually is without being circular or sexist (and I'm still waiting for an answer after two years of asking... It's like radio silence). So that these debates are being shut down by the left is surprising. Or maybe it isn't, maybe they are being shut down because they have no actual answers and are afraid of an "emperors new clothes moment". Who knows. No one, because no one is allowed to ask without threats of violence, accusations of bigotry or now, it seems ACTUAL violence.

Certainly no one is willing to answer.

Why should we be legislating for something no one is willing to discuss?

And do we really believe that the Conservative government under Maria Millier as equalities minister has anyone's best interests at heart? I mean ffs she constantly votes for anti - women and anti gay legislation. Does that not ring ANY alarm bells?

Meanwhile a 60 year old female is beaten by an apparent male but it's a-ok cos that bitch deserved it, and that male identifies as a woman so it isn't male violence, material analysis of the roots of opression (like wot Marx does) are no longer acceptable in left wing politics, and women should just believe they have a gender identity without asking what that even means.

Fucking ridiculous.

I think this is a great post and a great analysis.

There is a reasonable counterpoint (or possibly corollary) too, though; namely that we exist entirely in a social context. Your fact that our definitions of gender are rooted in misogyny and patriarchy -- that they are something that they arguably shouldn't be -- doesn't actually stop the definitions from existing in the here and now. People -- even those who cognitively fight against doing it -- have a model in their head for what it means to be "a woman" and that defintion ecompasses a whole host of characteristics that are non-biological in nature. There is a female gender identity, in short, even though you are right that it may well be circular and is certainly sexist. And a male identity too, at that.

So back to that social context. People don't get to decide the social context they find themselves in. Identity is (again arguably) entirely defined by relations with other people and structures, and those relations and structures are the ones with predefined gender identities. So they find themselves constructing their identity within the world that exists, which is the one with those identities.

If this was another world -- a better one, I think -- we wouldn't have these preconstructed gender identities to fuck us up so much. But given we do, people have to build their lives around it.

 

[andysays]

People are allowed to challenge you Stella.

Disagreeing with AuntiStella is a crime, and the penalty for those commiting the crime is to be put on ignore

Anyway, fuck this, I'm putting the whole thread on ignore