Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Sea Star]

btw - gnc trans people exist, as I mentioned

say it on here till you're blue in the face. I don't think anyone is listening.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah people definitely based their objections to an elderly woman getting twatted on that.

This is another one of your non sequiturs. A hell of a lot more has been covered on this thread than that.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

This is another one of your non sequiturs. A hell of a lot more has been covered on this thread than that.

That's how the thread started and some are bizarrely defending it. It will get backs up.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's how the thread started and some are bizarrely defending it. It will get backs up.

If we're getting picky, the thread started with a link accompanied by a content-free bullshit OP.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

If we're getting picky, the thread started with a link accompanied by a content-free bullshit OP.

Aye. After I gave some detail (which is now pretty much accepted even if some are apologists for it) I got accused of 'being lazy' and 'making things up'. I note those posters quickly made themselves scarce.

 

[The Flying Pig]

Odd to see militant anti-fascists like Magnus McGinty and The Flying Pig being so squeamish about political violence.

I assume that if a lone cameraman from Redwatch got up in their faces they would be warmly embraced these days?

Not squeamish about violence at all, quite enjoy it actually but don't feel the need to batter a sixty year old female who appears to be no threat to most.

 

[tim]

Ah well. I'll stay away then thanks.

Demonstrating only alongside those who would support such a physical attack on a photographer would not make it any more mortally acceptable.

 

[Jonti]

No I'm not. I posted as much earlier. There is a huge leap from that to seeing the erosion of rigid sex roles as somehow a 'cure' for transgender people to such an extent that they will no longer desire surgery. And if you talked to some trans people occasionally, you might realise that.

You can make yourself look like a twat making assumptions about people you don't know. It's a pretty distasteful tactic too.

 

[Jonti]

say it on here till you're blue in the face. I don't think anyone is listening.

Just because no one *says*, "yeah right", it doesn't mean everyone's ignoring the point. No one objected either, so it could equally mean that folks gave the point their silent assent.

That was my reaction anyway.

 

[Jonti]

Can we talk about toxic Id-pol politics yet?

Yes, I really think we should. Would you start a thread about it please Das Uberdog

 

[Geri]

another view from a cis woman activist and trans ally.

Jesus fucking Christ. I think I am going to have to invoke Godwin's law here. We are talking about a 60 year old feminist, not a fascist.

Dress it up how you like, this is not political violence - it is a cowardly and intimidatory attack on free speech and women's right to meet to discuss something they are interested in.

I am genuinely shocked and saddened to left wing people trying to justify this.

Fuck the left. A bunch of stinking putrid people with no decency or morals.

 

[Jonti]

dp (tried to eta to a previous post and somehow posted again instead)

 

[Jonti]

Jesus fucking Christ. I think I am going to have to invoke Godwin's law here. We are talking about a 60 year old feminist, not a fascist.

Dress it up how you like, this is not political violence - it is a cowardly and intimidatory attack on free speech and women's right to meet to discuss something they are interested in.

I am genuinely shocked and saddened to left wing people trying to justify this.

Fuck the left. A bunch of stinking putrid people with no decency or morals.

I think Das Uberdog (I'd tag him but I don't know how, can anyone explain how to do that please?) is very much part of the left, and he's been explicit that "no platforming" radical feminists is unbelievably stupid and toxic politics.

Let's see how the debate moves on before despairing.

 

[Geri]

I think Das Uberdog (I'd tag him but I don't know how, can anyone explain how to do that please?) is very much part of the left, and he's been explicit that "no platforming" radical feminists is unbelievably stupid and toxic politics.

Let's see how the debate moves on before despairing.

Sure, but it's not just this issue. I just don't think I have anything in common with most people who call themselves socialists any more.

 

[newbie]

type the @ symbol and start typing the name then choose the name from the popup list that appears.

the left is di9scussing this but it's not a matter of left wing politics, is it?

 

[andysays]

Thanks.

Transition isn't just about those roles and expectations though. It's perfectly possible to be gender non-conforming instead of transgender, or both GNC and trans...

I can understand how it's possible to be gender non-conforming instead of transgender, but not how it's possible to be both simultaneously.

The latin prefix trans explicitly means from one thing, position or state to another, frequently from one thing to its opposite.

Those who are GNC, as I understand it, are not seeking to transition from one gender to another, but to conform neither to the social gender they were originally assigned to and socialised in nor to the other (or perhaps "any other" might be better).

I can appreciate why some trans people and some GNC people might see themselves as having some shared interests, and to be potential political allies, but to attempt to stretch the meaning of the term trans to include GNCs seems to me to obscure differences between the two, differences which are important not only to the individual but also socially/politically, and therefore of relevance to all who have an interest in gender politics, whether they identify as trans or GNC or not.

 

[andysays]

Jesus fucking Christ. I think I am going to have to invoke Godwin's law here. We are talking about a 60 year old feminist, not a fascist.

Dress it up how you like, this is not political violence - it is a cowardly and intimidatory attack on free speech and women's right to meet to discuss something they are interested in.

I am genuinely shocked and saddened to left wing people trying to justify this.

Fuck the left. A bunch of stinking putrid people with no decency or morals.

The person who wrote that article and the poster who linked to it here aren't on the left.

I'm not convinced that any of those actually involved in the original incident are genuinely on or of the left, and if they are they certainly aren't in any way representative, despite what a few of the determined leftie bashers on this thread want to suggest.

 

[Geri]

type the @ symbol and start typing the name then choose the name from the popup list that appears.

the left is di9scussing this but it's not a matter of left wing politics, is it?

Well, my most vocal friends on Facebook defending the violence are former SWPers. The person who (allegedly) punches the 60 year old is apparently in Class War, or at least is a friend of Ian Bone.

Some of the threats I've seen on Twitter are quite frightening and scary.

It just makes me want to have nothing to do with any of them.

 

[Geri]

The person who wrote that article and the poster who linked to it here aren't on the left.

I'm not convinced that any of those actually involved in the original incident are genuinely on or of the left, and if they are they certainly aren't in any way representative, despite what a few of the determined leftie bashers on this thread want to suggest.

ignore, sorry

 

[Lambert Simnel]

I can understand how it's possible to be gender non-conforming instead of transgender, but not how it's possible to be both simultaneously.

The latin prefix trans explicitly means from one thing, position or state to another, frequently from one thing to its opposite.

Those who are GNC, as I understand it, are not seeking to transition from one gender to another, but to conform neither to the social gender they were originally assigned to and socialised in nor to the other (or perhaps "any other" might be better).

I can appreciate why some trans people and some GNC people might see themselves as having some shared interests, and to be potential political allies, but to attempt to stretch the meaning of the term trans to include GNCs seems to me to obscure differences between the two, differences which are important not only to the individual but also socially/politically, and therefore of relevance to all who have an interest in gender politics, whether they identify as trans or GNC or not.

Think of GNC as not confirming to traditional stereotypes in terms of behaviour or presentation. A bloke who likes to wear make-up or something as a crude example.

If it's possible for this bloke who was born male to wear make-up, and not conform to traditional male stereotypes, then it's also possible for someone who has transitioned from female to male to do the same. Such a trans person would be gender-non-conforming in the way they present themselves, but they would still be transgender, because they transitioned from female to male, they just don't conform to male gender stereotypes. The two things are really quite separate.

 

[tim]

Jesus fucking Christ. I think I am going to have to invoke Godwin's law here. We are talking about a 60 year old feminist, not a fascist.

Dress it up how you like, this is not political violence - it is a cowardly and intimidatory attack on free speech and women's right to meet to discuss something they are interested in.

I am genuinely shocked and saddened to left wing people trying to justify this.

Fuck the left. A bunch of stinking putrid people with no decency or morals.

I agree on the Godwin's law, comparing the women here to Nazis is absurd. The linked article seems to refer to a separate incident outside the University of London Women's club rather than at Speakers Corner and an alleged attack on protesting transwomen. All I would say is that it is unacceptable to violently attack anyone.

 

[andysays]

Think of GNC as not confirming to traditional stereotypes in terms of behaviour or presentation. A bloke who likes to wear make-up or something as a crude example.

If it's possible for this bloke who was born male to wear make-up, and not conform to traditional male stereotypes, then it's also possible for someone who has transitioned from female to male to do the same. Such a trans person would be gender-non-conforming in the way they present themselves, but they would still be transgender, because they transitioned from female to male, they just don't conform to male gender stereotypes. The two things are really quite separate.

Thanks for your reply, but I'm actually interested specifically in what the poster who I quoted thinks about my reply and the points I've brought up.

 

[Geri]

I agree on the Godwin's law, comparing the women here to Nazi is absurd. The linked article seems to refer to a separate incident outside the University of London Women's club rather than at Speakers Corner and an alleged attack on protesting transwomen. All I would say is that it is unacceptable to violently attack anyone.

Sure, and if I had seen a photo of a trans woman bruised after being beaten by the radical feminists, I would feel the same.

 

[Lambert Simnel]

Thanks for your reply, but I'm actually interested specifically in what the poster who I quoted thinks about my reply and the points I've brought up.

You should have PM'd them with your ignorance then, Jesus Christ.

 

[andysays]

You should have PM'd them with your ignorance then, Jesus Christ.

Idiot

 

[crossthebreeze]

I can understand how it's possible to be gender non-conforming instead of transgender, but not how it's possible to be both simultaneously.

The latin prefix trans explicitly means from one thing to another, frequently from one thing to its opposite.

Those who are GNC, as I understand it, are not seeking to transition from one gender to another, but to conform neither to the social gender they were originally assigned to and socialised in nor to the other (or perhaps "any other" might be better).

I can appreciate why some trans people and some GNC people might see themselves as having some shared interests, and to be potential political allies, but to attempt to stretch the meaning of the term trans to include GNCs seems to me to obscure differences between the two, differences which are important not only to the individual but also socially/politically, and therefore of relevance to all who have an interest in gender polics, whether they identify as trans or GNC or not.

Of course its possible to be both GNC and transgender!

Some trans people might have dysphoria based on their physical body (genitals, secondary sex characteristics) and so wish to alter those through hormones, surgery, cosmetic treatment - and/or might have dysphoria about what gender they are seen as (or in some cases simply find it easier or safer to be seen as the gender they transition to (ie a friend of mine gets a huge of amount of shit now she's generally assumed to be a GNC woman but she says that pales in significance to the violence she experienced when she was assumed to be a GNC man) - but might have no desire to limit their clothing options or interests to conform to the gender they transition to.

Some trans people have non-binary identity and want to be seen as being neither men or women (and so might want the legal option to do this).

Some trans people might have dysphoria based on their physical body and want medical/surgical/cosmetic treatment for this, but might not want to transition legally or socially.

 

[SpookyFrank]

An awful lot of cis people on this thread have seen fit to tell trans people what their problem is.

We've learned that it's all down to genes. Or Hormones. Or Marxist dialectical deconstructionist reconstructionist dialectical immaterial venerial dialecticism. Or society being way too hung up on labels man.

But what we've learned above all is that everyone's an expert apart from actual trans people, who are all just talking nonsense.

 

[Jonti]

Well, my most vocal friends on Facebook defending the violence are former SWPers. The person who (allegedly) punches the 60 year old is apparently in Class War, or at least is a friend of Ian Bone.

Some of the threats I've seen on Twitter are quite frightening and scary.

It just makes me want to have nothing to do with any of them.

The root confusion is down to the pernicious aspects of post-modernism. The intellectual confusion behind the toxic-id politics we've seen on this thread is idealism. As FabricLiveBaby! put it:

In short it's a fight between two types of political philosophy.

Idealists: those who believe thoughts form your reality (Butlerites and Postmodernists)

And

Materialists: those who believe material reality affects our thoughts and behaviours (Marxists)

It's really not surprising that the Conservatives are coming down on the side of IdPoler Butlerites. As marxist philosophy was and is in direct contrast to idealist philosophies.

Edit : It's also not surprising that the young Butlerites are fighting through that system, as they grew up in a neoliberal world and have NO idea what class consciousness looks like.

One want to keep protections based on sex (material philosophy) and the other want to effectively do away with sex based protections in favour of "gender identity" (idealist philosophy) .

The talk was called "what is gender". Which apparently poses a problem to idealist who cant/won't answer that question.

SWPers defending the "no platform for rad fems" campaigners have lost site of their scientific materialism. That's beyond dispute. From the point of view of sexual politics, they're likely unreconstructed males as well, which I grant is a significant issue in its own right.

Toxic-ID politics is the result.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So who are the 'far more nuanced insight' I should be taking notice of in this instance?

Is that not obvious? Top of the queue if you're considering issues of transgender would be transgender people. Point here being that while many people have issues with gender identity, only a very few people are transgender. Discussing the former may not give you as much insight into the latter as you think it does. As, I'm sorry to say, is amply illustrated by this thread.

 

[newbie]

Well, my most vocal friends on Facebook defending the violence are former SWPers. The person who (allegedly) punches the 60 year old is apparently in Class War, or at least is a friend of Ian Bone.

Some of the threats I've seen on Twitter are quite frightening and scary.

It just makes me want to have nothing to do with any of them.

join the club though tbf, 'ex-SWP' and 'twitter' are hardly likely to be what the doctor ordered for calm reading matter

Maybe this is more to do with the Class War outlook on conflict resolution than what anyone has been discussing?