spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
Jesus. Do you actually know any people who are sixty? I bloody dare you to call them elderly to their face.
Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?
- Thread starter The Flying Pig
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The Flying Pig
Well-Known Member
Then the state and all it's agent saboteurs, who come in many different disguises has defeated you. Surely you can see through the systems shit.
The Flying Pig
Well-Known Member
Using diversionary tactics to justify an assault on a 60 year old female? It does not wash with anybody. You will have to try much harder and come up with another random excuse or just concede the fact the assault was not acceptable ...end of!
felixthecat
are we there yet?
I'm 55 and I don't plan on becoming elderly in 5 years time. And if anyone does dare to call me elderly at 60 they'd be the ones getting twatted
.The Flying Pig
Well-Known Member
you can be withever you like. It's fine by me.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
Funny, because from this side it seems that everyone's allowed to discuss what makes a woman except, you know, actual women.
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
There are a few points I would like to address. Ive been following this thread since yesterday.
Firstly, whilst reading this thread I kept thinking of Fight Club because I think that some women see trans women like Marla Singer, ie someone who lies about who they are and plays up their suffering in order to attend support groups. The whole argument about wimmins only spaces- spaces cis women can discuss problems only cis women experience (*cough and trans men and non binary folk) is a daft one imo because where are all the trans women insisting they attend meetings about miscarriage or endometriosis? etc. Nobody is stopping or picketting or intruding on such meetings so it's a disingenuous argument. It's also a smokescreen really because as this thread (and any other thread on the internet that mentions trans people shows) some cis women (and actually it's many) do not accept trans women as 'real women' and they see them as men, fake and predators invading wimmins spaces. Let's be clear and honest about that. Let's also be clear on what a slur that is to trans women. To be made out to be liars, to constantly have their identity scrutinised, judged and dismissed is incredibly stigmatising even if it doesn't go as far as making out their transitions sole purpose was to trick straight men and gain access to women in order to control or assault them. This entire rhetoric built on fear and ignorance is, whether you like it or not, the rhetoric of transphobia. It can and does lead to street harassment, hate crimes, the murder of trans women and contributes to high suicide rates. Clearly transphobia is not solely a women's issue, but I do believe that feminists need to take responsibility for the part they play in its proliferation. How on earth is shouting at trans women and conflating them with men's rights activists helping anyone? It's absurd and extremely harmful.
My second point concerns cis people attempting to explain away trans identities by likening trans boys to confused female 'Tom boys' or self loathing lesbians. I know we all try to make sense of the world through our narrow lenses of experience but guess what, if you aren't trans then you can't fully relate. I can't fully relate as a cis woman either which is why I listen to those whose experience trumps my own. In exactly the same way that as white people we can't fully appreciate the effect if institutionalised racism so should be paying attention to the lived experience of POC.
Your stories of defying gender norms yet reaching a level of acceptance of your body or gender identity, are they supposed to rouse a cheer for how you've overcome adversity and not fallen down the wrong path to confused transdom? If only everyone could be so enlightened and self accepting then we could do away with all this confusing trans stuff and avoid unnecessary surgeries right? How about asking trans and non binary people about that?
How do we create an atmosphere where these kinds of conversations can actually happen and education can occur? Personally I think it's when we stop letting fear make us shout our confusion & assumptions in trans people's faces. We don't listen attentively when we are merely waiting for our turn to speak. And we can't learn from or support those that we 'other' and exclude from our spaces.
Firstly, whilst reading this thread I kept thinking of Fight Club because I think that some women see trans women like Marla Singer, ie someone who lies about who they are and plays up their suffering in order to attend support groups. The whole argument about wimmins only spaces- spaces cis women can discuss problems only cis women experience (*cough and trans men and non binary folk) is a daft one imo because where are all the trans women insisting they attend meetings about miscarriage or endometriosis? etc. Nobody is stopping or picketting or intruding on such meetings so it's a disingenuous argument. It's also a smokescreen really because as this thread (and any other thread on the internet that mentions trans people shows) some cis women (and actually it's many) do not accept trans women as 'real women' and they see them as men, fake and predators invading wimmins spaces. Let's be clear and honest about that. Let's also be clear on what a slur that is to trans women. To be made out to be liars, to constantly have their identity scrutinised, judged and dismissed is incredibly stigmatising even if it doesn't go as far as making out their transitions sole purpose was to trick straight men and gain access to women in order to control or assault them. This entire rhetoric built on fear and ignorance is, whether you like it or not, the rhetoric of transphobia. It can and does lead to street harassment, hate crimes, the murder of trans women and contributes to high suicide rates. Clearly transphobia is not solely a women's issue, but I do believe that feminists need to take responsibility for the part they play in its proliferation. How on earth is shouting at trans women and conflating them with men's rights activists helping anyone? It's absurd and extremely harmful.
My second point concerns cis people attempting to explain away trans identities by likening trans boys to confused female 'Tom boys' or self loathing lesbians. I know we all try to make sense of the world through our narrow lenses of experience but guess what, if you aren't trans then you can't fully relate. I can't fully relate as a cis woman either which is why I listen to those whose experience trumps my own. In exactly the same way that as white people we can't fully appreciate the effect if institutionalised racism so should be paying attention to the lived experience of POC.
Your stories of defying gender norms yet reaching a level of acceptance of your body or gender identity, are they supposed to rouse a cheer for how you've overcome adversity and not fallen down the wrong path to confused transdom? If only everyone could be so enlightened and self accepting then we could do away with all this confusing trans stuff and avoid unnecessary surgeries right? How about asking trans and non binary people about that?
How do we create an atmosphere where these kinds of conversations can actually happen and education can occur? Personally I think it's when we stop letting fear make us shout our confusion & assumptions in trans people's faces. We don't listen attentively when we are merely waiting for our turn to speak. And we can't learn from or support those that we 'other' and exclude from our spaces.
The Flying Pig
Well-Known Member
I am not quite sure what you think we have done to ourselves but whatever it is you can share it if you want.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Oh dear. Except flb's argument is wrong, an overly simplistic misunderstanding of materialism/idealism.
Secondly no one has defended 'no platforming' rad fems, that's just a lie repeated by a couple of idiots/bigots. If you are not going to be honest, what would be the point of a 'wider' debate?
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SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Sounds like you've already made your mind up about who is what and who isn't, so why would you want to discuss it?
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
Because transwomen tend to make it all about them.
The way I've started to see this debate is to move it on a bit to - if we are to have a legal position that gender is a choice based on self identification, what are the consequences?
I don't know the answers. But one of the questions I would ask is do people need protection from the opposite sex. For example, I think in most sports at the top level they do. Biological males at that level will always have a strength advantage over biological females. So some demarcation or protection is necesarry.
I think that extends to other areas too. The physical strength difference between the majority of biological males and females is too significant to ignore. The risk of abuse is too great for it not be addressed I think.
How do we deal with that issue?
I don't know the answers. But one of the questions I would ask is do people need protection from the opposite sex. For example, I think in most sports at the top level they do. Biological males at that level will always have a strength advantage over biological females. So some demarcation or protection is necesarry.
I think that extends to other areas too. The physical strength difference between the majority of biological males and females is too significant to ignore. The risk of abuse is too great for it not be addressed I think.
How do we deal with that issue?
abstract1
shitting miracles
Fuck off! What the original post did was give away the shitty pernicious attitudes about women and age.
The response was about that - your misrepresentation of spanglechick's response speaks volumes about you, and how you engage in debate.
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Well said.There are a few points I would like to address. Ive been following this thread since yesterday.
Firstly, whilst reading this thread I kept thinking of Fight Club because I think that some women see trans women like Marla Singer, ie someone who lies about who they are and plays up their suffering in order to attend support groups. The whole argument about wimmins only spaces- spaces cis women can discuss problems only cis women experience (*cough and trans men and non binary folk) is a daft one imo because where are all the trans women insisting they attend meetings about miscarriage or endometriosis? etc. Nobody is stopping or picketting or intruding on such meetings so it's a disingenuous argument. It's also a smokescreen really because as this thread (and any other thread on the internet that mentions trans people shows) some cis women (and actually it's many) do not accept trans women as 'real women' and they see them as men, fake and predators invading wimmins spaces. Let's be clear and honest about that. Let's also be clear on what a slur that is to trans women. To be made out to be liars, to constantly have their identity scrutinised, judged and dismissed is incredibly stigmatising even if it doesn't go as far as making out their transitions sole purpose was to trick straight men and gain access to women in order to control or assault them. This entire rhetoric built on fear and ignorance is, whether you like it or not, the rhetoric of transphobia. It can and does lead to street harassment, hate crimes, the murder of trans women and contributes to high suicide rates. Clearly transphobia is not solely a women's issue, but I do believe that feminists need to take responsibility for the part they play in its proliferation. How on earth is shouting at trans women and conflating them with men's rights activists helping anyone? It's absurd and extremely harmful.
My second point concerns cis people attempting to explain away trans identities by likening trans boys to confused female 'Tom boys' or self loathing lesbians. I know we all try to make sense of the world through our narrow lenses of experience but guess what, if you aren't trans then you can't fully relate. I can't fully relate as a cis woman either which is why I listen to those whose experience trumps my own. In exactly the same way that as white people we can't fully appreciate the effect if institutionalised racism so should be paying attention to the lived experience of POC.
Your stories of defying gender norms yet reaching a level of acceptance of your body or gender identity, are they supposed to rouse a cheer for how you've overcome adversity and not fallen down the wrong path to confused transdom? If only everyone could be so enlightened and self accepting then we could do away with all this confusing trans stuff and avoid unnecessary surgeries right? How about asking trans and non binary people about that?
How do we create an atmosphere where these kinds of conversations can actually happen and education can occur? Personally I think it's when we stop letting fear make us shout our confusion & assumptions in trans people's faces. We don't listen attentively when we are merely waiting for our turn to speak. And we can't learn from or support those that we 'other' and exclude from our spaces.
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
I cba to do so, but if I cared to I could post up many condemnations of this attack I have made myself on this thread. I'll do it again, just for you: this assault was not acceptable.
This is because I believe punching people in the head is a bad thing. I don't need to make out that the person assaulted was some frail little old dear in order to be at odds with it.
People who have exaggerated her frailty (as they have by calling her "elderly") are clearly seeking to use emotive language to exaggerate the harm done. Isn't it enough to say "a middle aged activist was punched in the head"...? Isn't that bad enough?
Geri
wasn't born to follow
I agree 60 isn't elderly - but it isn't middle aged either. I referred to her as older.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Same as all those stories about trans women reverting to maleness in women's toilets, it just doesn't seem to happen. Funny that.
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
Weaker people need need protection from stronger people. ORRRRR... how about stronger people take responsibility for their own behaviour? I don't go round beating on children because I don't show physical violence to anyone - not because they are physically segregated from me.
I'm not really sure what you're proposing. Are you talking about prisons?
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
mojo pixy
interesting times
Yeah I guess either it doesn't happen, or nobody cares about it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What i find interesting about this is the way that the radical feminists (and i am distinguishing between them and the socialist/marxist feminists) - the ones who helped bring ID politics into society, or the left at least - on the basis of either biological/sex or gender essentialism (and, it must be pointed out that it was usually in response to failings of state/society and the Official Labour Movement to recognise their existence never mind the problems they face) have now been out identity-politicked by a new set of people who have taken their underlying assumptions and ran with them.
They are challenging them on a formally anti-essentialist basis that's actually a series of fragmented essentialisms - in the same way that official top down state multi-culturalism is actually really multiple mono-cultures. And both of course posture towards a greater unity in their intersectional/multi-cultural titlings. The dialectic is truly at work here.
Makes me wonder what's in the post for the challengers a few years down the road. It's certainly not going to be class politics if this path is continued down. At least not from within - i think class politics is only going to do that from without.
They are challenging them on a formally anti-essentialist basis that's actually a series of fragmented essentialisms - in the same way that official top down state multi-culturalism is actually really multiple mono-cultures. And both of course posture towards a greater unity in their intersectional/multi-cultural titlings. The dialectic is truly at work here.
Makes me wonder what's in the post for the challengers a few years down the road. It's certainly not going to be class politics if this path is continued down. At least not from within - i think class politics is only going to do that from without.
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I guess I'm saying we currently have areas where the sexes are separated. Sport as I mentioned. Toilets and showers etc. Are these separations necesarry or not? Is there a reason for the separation beyond it being simply an arbitrary one?
I'm not proposing things, I'm trying to learn.
Fairly sure the state/establishment adoption of ID politics has a fairly significant role in how it has become so dominant tbf.
Treacle Toes
Time
Do you have much experience of women trying to organise and the trans women among them making it all about them?
Can you give us some examples from your direct experiences?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Sure. They're encouraging all this. Uncritical adoption of social media as vehicle of choice also accelerates matters.
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Ignore me, I misread the last few lines.
I just feel the whole 'we did this to ourselves' idea doesn't really work - elsewhere we try to avoid the idea of systemic trends being down to individual morality, so we should probably avoid doing it when talking about our own shit.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Short reply, out the door soon - but simply not from these competing ID focused groups who spend 24-7 on twitter and facebook winding each other up as far as they possibly can.
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