Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Sea Star]

THIS

Think of GNC as not confirming to traditional stereotypes in terms of behaviour or presentation. A bloke who likes to wear make-up or something as a crude example.

If it's possible for this bloke who was born male to wear make-up, and not conform to traditional male stereotypes, then it's also possible for someone who has transitioned from female to male to do the same. Such a trans person would be gender-non-conforming in the way they present themselves, but they would still be transgender, because they transitioned from female to male, they just don't conform to male gender stereotypes. The two things are really quite separate.

 

[Sea Star]

It would appear to be counterproductive to attend an events where women are claiming that transwomen threaten female ony spaces ... then beat a woman up.

which is not what happened. And is far from an honest and complete picture of the events that evening.

 

[bemused]

which is not what happened. And is far from an honest and complete picture of the events that evening.

That wasn't a transactivist hitting women? I'm only going by the press reports and video.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Jesus. Do you actually know any people who are sixty? I bloody dare you to call them elderly to their face.

In the context I'd expect they'd agree that putting them up against a twenty something isn't a fair bloody fight.

 

[Treacle Toes]

In the context I'd expect they'd agree that putting them up against a twenty something isn't a fair bloody fight.

So what, it doesn't mean you get to call them elderly. You added it for effect. It's unnecessary and incorrect.

 

[Shechemite]

So what, it doesn't mean you get to call them elderly.

And yet somehow he did

 

[Magnus McGinty]

So what, it doesn't mean you get to call them elderly. You added it for effect. It's unnecessary and incorrect.

It isn't incorrect. I didn't say frail or infirm. She is the elder of her attacker by some margin.

 

[Jonti]

What is the sex status of trans people? I'm not talking just legal definitions here. I don't think it's a straightforward question, and I think this quite probably gets to the heart of a lot of the confusion here. You and others have spoken about your struggles with gender identity, but how ultimately that did not lead you to question your sex identity, ie your physical body. But surely trans people are in a state of unease with their sex identity. They feel it is wrong, that they have been born into the wrong body, to the extent that they desire medical intervention to align their physical bodies with how they feel they should be. This goes beyond gender and enters into questions of biological sex. That a trans woman is never going to be a reproductively female person, nor a trans male a reproductively male person, is a function of the limits to the interventions available to them, but there are plenty of women-born-women and men-born-men who also lack that ability. That doesn't seem a very good test.

Seeing the above problem of what a test might be, there is what seems to me to be a post-fact rationalisation of what is basically a bigotted viewpoint - namely that they haven't passed the woman-test of growing up as a woman. Would that then mean that a trans woman who was given medical intervention at puberty is allowed in? We're back to having a ludicrous debate about age cut-off points for admittance - and once you get to that point, I think you should consider that your thinking's gone wrong somewhere along the line.

Apart from postmodernism, there's a real problem with categorical, essentialist thinking as well. Transitioning takes time. Everything does. A person may be intending to transition, content with a partial transition, be well along the path, or have completed things.

Deconstructing one's male privilege does not come easy, not for any of us, I think.

So we should think about transitioning as a process, rather than a state (a trans man or trans woman), especially when it comes to gender politics.

 

[Sea Star]

this is what feminism looks like

So now I want to be unequivocal in my words: I believe that transgender people, including those who have transitioned, are living out real, authentic lives. Those lives should be celebrated, not questioned. Their health care decisions should be theirs and theirs alone to make. And what I wrote decades ago does not reflect what we know today as we move away from only the binary boxes of “masculine” or “feminine” and begin to live along the full human continuum of identity and expression.

Gloria Steinam

Work with transsexuals, and studies of formation of gender identity in children provide basic information which challenges the notion that there are two discrete biological sexes. That information threatens to transform the traditional biology of sex difference into the radical biology of sex similarity… Every transsexual is entitled to a sex-change operation, and it should be provided by the community as one of its functions.

Andrea Dworkin

Male dominant society has defined women as a discrete biological group forever. If this was going to produce liberation, we’d be free.… To me, women is a political group. I never had much occasion to say that, or work with it, until the last few years when there has been a lot of discussion about whether transwomen are women… I always thought I don’t care how someone becomes a woman or a man; it does not matter to me. It is just part of their specificity, their uniqueness, like everyone else’s. Anybody who identifies as a woman, wants to be a woman, is going around being a woman, as far as I’m concerned, is a woman.

Katharine McKinnon

Transphobia in the feminist community isn’t new and continues to be promoted by radical feminists such as Sheila Jeffreys, Germaine Greer, and Julie Bindel who pathologize transgenderism for a variety of reasons. They characterize being transgender in various ways: as an extremely kinky sexual practice or a mental illness such as body dysmorphic disorder. Sometimes the criticism is paternalistic in claiming that transgender people are merely exploited victims of the medical industry’s drive to make money with various surgical and hormonal procedures. The 1994 book Transexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male by Janice Raymond describes being transsexual as a medical invention manufactured to create profit. Another criticism is that transgender people reinforce gender roles or expression. For example, Germaine Greer once referred to transwomen as “ghastly parodies of women” with “too much eye-shadow.” Sometimes the attacks on transgender people reach conspiracy levels by those who see the phenomenon as an effort by men to turn themselves into women in order to infiltrate “women”-only spaces. Radical feminists Lierre Keith and Derrick Jensen blend transphobia with “anti-civilization” environmentalism in Deep Green Resistance (DGR). Julie Labrouste, a contact of Radical Women, was repudiated by DGR, which had been urging her to join until she mentioned she was trans-female.

Radical Women, 2nd wave feminist organization, formed in 1967

History of TERF violence against trans women

RL Violence Motivated by TERF Ideology
Sandy Stone, victim of attempted murder by TERF group:

Sandy Stone recounts the time when Olivia Records (a lesbian separatist, radical feminist women’s music collective) came under attack for being trans inclusive: “We were getting hate mail about me.… The death threats were directed at me, but there were violent consequences proposed for the Collective if they didn’t get rid of me.”

Olivia and Stone were informed that a TERF group named The Gorgons asserted that they would murder Stone if Olivia’s show came to Seattle. Stone said that the Olivia show was “probably the only women’s music tour that was ever done with serious muscle security.”

Making good on their threats, armed Gorgons came to the show but was disarmed by Olivia security. Stone said, “In fact, Gorgons did come and they did have guns taken away from them. I was terrified. During a break between a musical number someone shouted out ‘GORGONS!’ and I made it from my seat at the console to under the table the console was on at something like superluminal speed. I stayed under there until it was clear that I wasn’t about to be shot.

Cis radical feminist Robin Tyler beaten by TERFs, recounting attempted bashing of Beth Elliott:

“We defended Beth Eliot. Robin Morgan came up with this horrible speech and when Beth went on stage to play her guitar and sing, [TERFs] started threatening her. Patty [Harrison] and I jumped on stage and we got hit, because they came onto the stage to physically beat her.”

Lesbian Avengers mobbed by TERFs, threatened with knife in front of MichFest audience:

“A huge crowd of yelling people formed around us and I started crying at that point. It got so loud that Nomy Lamm, who was performing there as part of Sister Spit, came over and stood up for us… The crowd and me were walked over to a tent area. The way that it worked was that there was a queue of people who were going to get to say whatever they wanted to say. I remember, specifically, one woman looking right at me and telling me that I needed to leave the Land as soon as possible because she had a knife and didn’t know if she would be able to control herself if I was around her.”

Stonewall Riot veteran Sylvia Rivera, victim of beating organized by a TERF opinion leader:

“‘Jean O’Leary, a founder of Radicalesbians, decided that drag queens were insulting to women… I had been told I was going to speak at the rally… She told Vito Russo to kick my ass onstage… but I still got up and spoke my piece.’ Although Rivera was famously quoted as saying in response, ‘Hell hath no fury like a drag queen scorned,’ this incident precipitated yet another suicide attempt on her part. Jean O’Leary later reversed her position, and she and Sylvia ultimately remained respectful peers, but the events of that day in 1973 ultimately took something out of Sylvia Rivera. In the succeeding years, Sylvia Rivera’s participation in ‘the movement’ waned. Although she attended every Christopher Street Liberation Day Parade (with the exception of two) until her death, Sylvia’s formal participation in organizations like the GLF and the GAA came to a halt.” – Susan Glisson (Ed), The Human Tradition in the Civil Rights Movement, p 325

Cis & trans activists threatened at MichFest, inspiring the Camp Trans movement:

“Some people in the festival began harassing us and then around noon on Wednesday or Thursday, the festival security stopped by and told us that the trans women in our group would have to leave, ‘for their own safety.’

Tensions were definitely rising, we were told. We had scheduled to do some workshops and some folks were definitely hostile. We were told that, for our own safety, the trans women would need to leave the festival as soon as possible. It was a situation.

We decided that I would stay inside the festival to continue educating people and the other folks would set up camp across the street from the festival in protest.”

State of California documents trans deaths attributable to barriers in accessing trans health care:

“In this study, the strongest predictor associated with the risk of suicide was gender-based discrimination that included ‘problems getting health or medical services due to their gender identity or presentation…’ Notably, this gender-based discrimination was a more reliable predictor of suicide than depression, history of alcohol/drug abuse treatment, physical victimization, or sexual assault. These studies provide overwhelming evidence that removing discriminatory barriers to treatment results in significantly lower suicide rates.”

all that and more here.

 

[Clair De Lune]

No, that's misrepresenting what I said, with a gross caricature. The discussion need not necessarily exclude trans women. I'm sure lots of women who are currently undecided about where they stand would welcome hearing a range of perspectives. And the question wouldn't be whether trans women are real, but whether they are women. Do you agree that women ought to have the freedom to have this discussion?

So not if they are real but if they are women. I see no distinction personally. Women are having these discussions already privately and publicly, that freedom is theirs. It's hard to escape from them and I see the genuine pain it causes my trans friends to have their Twitter and Facebook feeds flooded with people denying their identities, mocking them and abusing them with impunity.

 

[Sea Star]

i see now that Maria is trying to claim that she was filming with consent. Video however shows that the young people she was harrassing were trying to shield themselves from the camera and she was having none of it.

 

[bemused]

i see now that Maria is trying to claim that she was filming with consent. Video however shows that the young people she was harrassing were trying to shield themselves from the camera and she was having none of it.

To be fair you don't need consent to film in a public place.

 

[Shechemite]

i see now that Maria is trying to claim that she was filming with consent. Video however shows that the young people she was harrassing were trying to shield themselves from the camera and she was having none of it.

That she was harassing?

 

[The Flying Pig]

I cba to do so, but if I cared to I could post up many condemnations of this attack I have made myself on this thread. I'll do it again, just for you: this assault was not acceptable.

This is because I believe punching people in the head is a bad thing. I don't need to make out that the person assaulted was some frail little old dear in order to be at odds with it.

People who have exaggerated her frailty (as they have by calling her "elderly") are clearly seeking to use emotive language to exaggerate the harm done. Isn't it enough to say "a middle aged activist was punched in the head"...? Isn't that bad enough?

Punching someone in the head is not the issue, attacking a sixty year old is. Frail? Middle aged? little old dear? I don't see it as relevent. Striking a male,female or whatever other description you want to give to a sixty year old human being is out of order.

 

[Athos]

So not if they are real but if they are women. I see no distinction personally. Women are having these discussions already privately and publicly, that freedom is theirs. It's hard to escape from them and I see the genuine pain it causes my trans friends to have their Twitter and Facebook feeds flooded with people denying their identities, mocking them and abusing them with impunity.

Again you're conflating two very different things. Nobody in their right mind would defend mockery and abuse of trans people. But it's not the same as discussing e.g. what is a woman. Do you think women should be free to have that discussion? Because many don't.

And I can understand why some women are uncomfortable with the idea that they ought to uncritically accept a definition of themselves (i.e. women) which has recently radically changed, seemingly to accommodate a relatively small number of people born into male-sexed bodies and raised and socialised as boys then men. Particularly when they're subjected to violence or, say, rape threats for daring to question. Can you?

A particular difficulty arises when people use a legitimate aim as cover for something else e.g. harassing and goading trans people as seems to have happened in that incident. The question is how to respond. Clearly, very few people agree that punching her was appropriate (apart from being wrong, it was a PR disaster). But what else? No platforming? In my opinion, that would have played into the 'trans women silencing women' narrative. But, equally, trans people shouldn't feel obliged to debate anyone.

Perhaps a more productive approach might have been to protest outside the meeting, and explain to women attending in good faith why they didn't want to legitimise those speakers by debating with them. And perhaps expound some of the arguments in favour of trans inclusion.

 

[Sea Star]

So not if they are real but if they are women. I see no distinction personally. Women are having these discussions already privately and publicly, that freedom is theirs. It's hard to escape from them and I see the genuine pain it causes my trans friends to have their Twitter and Facebook feeds flooded with people denying their identities, mocking them and abusing them with impunity.

I can't see who you're responding to. But, I can back you up here. Yes, I attend women only meetings where i am accepted, and yes we do discuss these issues among others, including issues that would only be relevant for cis women, and no-one in the meetings i attend have an issue with a trans woman being there. In fact for a while I was experiencing women approaching me quietly telling me how much they supported me and trans acceptance but were afraid to speak out because of the TERFs.

Even with stuff that I am not directly able to experience I can show empathy, I can be supportive. Just because my issues aren't their issues, and their issues may not be my issues, this is feminism and we're all women, and I think that we're stronger together than at each other's throats or all in our seperate little silos marked "black women", "lesbians", "femme lesbians", "transwomen (sic)" etc.

Trans women aren't the first to have been excluded from mainstream feminism, but we are the latest in a long proud line. I have no doubt that the end result is a no brainer - that of acceptance. I hope i get to live to see it.

And this is an experience that resonates with many trans women (i do talk to hundreds) and probably most cis women who are trans allies (i talk to many). We see no actual problem between us. No conflicts. No conflict of rights. The problem seems to be that some "feminists" are refusing to accept the majority view in this matter because of their ideology, and are using every underhand method they can to get us excluded, including support form MRA's and religious extremists, appealing to right wing corporate media, and even resorting to organised violence.

My earliest allies - the people that supported me through my transition, were all cis women, some of whom identify as feminists. Cis women are accepting trans women as women despite the rhetoric coming from the Church, the Corporate press, vested interest politicians, MRAs and TERFs.

And thankyou, Clair, for your very eloquent support. I appreciate it and I'm sure most of my trans siblings would too.

I've lost count now the number of women that have come up to me at some point to say they held TERFy views until they met me, and are now among my best allies. I believe that getting out there, personalising this, and giving their hatred a face, and flesh and blood, does more good to challenge bigotry than anything else which is why I'm, out there and as visible as possible and i do get shit for it. I get shit for it on here - and i believe because most people find it very hard to cling to their bigotry when it manifests itself in a real person that they can relate to actually suffering as a result.

I saw a blog the other day by a cis woman who has lost patience now with the TERFs and it was very well written piece about how the TERFs have lost their way and should no longer be accepted as feminists. Unfortunately can't put my hands on it right now but if I do I'll post the pertinent bits.

I realise i don't really have a voice in this at the moment and i feel very vulnerable even now, after 4 years, but I'm not shutting up. I'm not going away. My body, my identity, my life.
I laugh at the idea that me of all people on this thread shouldn't be personalising this or referring to my own experiences. Yes, way to go trying to silence one of the few trans voices on this thread.

eta - aplogies, i have a really bad habit of continuing to edit things after i've posted them because that's how my brain works, nothing sinister. Not trying to catch people out.

 

[The Flying Pig]

That she was harassing?

how precious we are all are. you don't need anyones consent to photograph, video etc. The world is not some uni campus, it is for real.

 

[abstract1]

Punching someone in the head is not the issue, attacking a sixty year old is. Frail? Middle aged? little old dear? I don't see it as relevent. Striking a male,female or whatever other description you want to give to a sixty year old human being is out of order.

You're a fucking idiot.

 

[Sea Star]

how precious we are all are. you don't need anyones consent to photograph, video etc. The world is not some uni campus, it is for real.

and the violence that results from doxxing is all good fun, eh?

 

[Athos]

I'm increasingly thinking that the principal damage identity politics* is doing is to erode the idea of solidarity, and crucially that solidarity is very different from agreement. I don't have to agree with the way some trans people approach gender to be willing to support them as an oppressed group. I don't have to agree with the opinion some radical feminists have about trans people to be willing to support them against misogynistic abuse. The fact that the people on one side of this are called people on the other side fascists, in what appears to be a serious way, is quite shocking to me.

Another important aspect of solidarity that seems to be falling by the wayside, is that it doesn't have to be reciprocal. Support for one group should not be based on their willingness to support you in turn. To me these are the most principles of what it means to be 'left'.

*Or maybe it is the other way around. The weakening of the idea of solidarity, allows identity politics in it's current form to grow.

Yes, ultimately I prefer not to undermine solidarity with the idea that trans people deserve to live free of persecution, by focusing on differences between my conception of gender and that of some trans people, particularly if doing so causes them unnecessary upset in the process.

 

[TikkiB]

I can't see who you're responding to. But, I can back you up here. Yes, I attend women only meetings where i am accepted, and yes we do discuss these issues among others, including issues that would only be relevant for cis women, and no-one in the meetings i attend have an issue with a trans woman being there. In fact for a while I was experiencing women approaching me quietly telling me how much they supported me and trans acceptance but were afraid to speak out because of the TERFs..........

Stella, thank you for posting that. I think that is the first time I have read a post of yours which speaks to me of common purpose and solidarity with other women. Previously I seem only to have caught your responses to cis women on the board that have not been quite so collaborative - your response to Weepiper's comment about (cis) women being the only people not allowed to discuss what it is to be a woman is an example.

This board can be a difficult place for the voices and experiences of women (cis or trans) to be heard at times, and my perception is that sometimes your posts have not acknowledged that, or indeed have not made common cause with other women in the face of explicit, or implicit sexism.

If my perception is wrong then I apologise.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Punching someone in the head is not the issue, attacking a sixty year old is. Frail? Middle aged? little old dear? I don't see it as relevent. Striking a male,female or whatever other description you want to give to a sixty year old human being is out of order.

Just to be clear about this, the violence was out of order and Stella linked to a very good response to it from a trans woman's blog, where she rightly berated the punchy idiot for the enormous damage the violence did to the cause, in the process introducing yet another incident of violence against women to the world. So nobody's defending the violence, and it frankly would not be any better if the woman who was punched had been 30. So I don't agree at all that 'punching someone in the head is not the issue'.

But there is a separate issue related directly to the video in the OP and its purpose. Its purpose was very clear - to advance the viewpoint that this was male violence against women and an example of trans terrorism. These are unpleasant people who go out of their way to demonise trans women. This idiot happened to play right into their hands in this instance by doing an out of order thing that they could then use to advance their narrative that trans women are men in disguise and a violent threat to 'real' women.

There is no reason why it can't be possible to recognise both of these things - that the assault on this person was wrong, and that the assault has then been used by the person's group to advance a deeply unpleasant agenda.

 

[belboid]

Again you're conflating two very different things. Nobody in their right mind would defend mockery and abuse of trans people. But it's not the same as discussing e.g. what is a woman. Do you think women should be free to have that discussion? Because many don't.

And I can understand why some women are uncomfortable with the idea that they ought to uncritically accept a definition of themselves (i.e. women) which has recently radically changed, seemingly to accommodate a relatively small number of people born into male-sexed bodies and raised and socialised as boys then men. Particularly when they're subjected to violence or, say, rape threats for daring to question. Can you?

A particular difficulty arises when people use a legitimate aim as cover for something else e.g. harassing and goading trans people as seems to have happened in that incident. The question is how to respond. Clearly, very few people agree that punching her was appropriate (apart from being wrong, it was a PR disaster). But what else? No platforming? In my opinion, that would have played into the 'trans women silencing women' narrative. But, equally, trans people shouldn't feel obliged to debate anyone.

Perhaps a more productive approach might have been to protest outside the meeting, and explain to women attending in good faith why they didn't want to legitimise those speakers by debating with them. And perhaps expound some of the arguments in favour of trans inclusion.

Unfortunately, I think some on here have no problem with defending mockery and abuse of trans people. Apparently calling trans campaigners MRA's, calling out 'the trans cult' and misgendering people is fine.

I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[Athos]

Unfortunately, I think some on here have no problem with defending mockery and abuse of trans people. Apparently calling trans campaigners MRA's, calling out 'the trans cult' and misgendering people is fine.

I agree with the rest of your post.

Then they should be taken to task.

 

[Sea Star]

Stella, thank you for posting that. I think that is the first time I have read a post of yours which speaks to me of common purpose and solidarity with other women. Previously I seem only to have caught your responses to cis women on the board that have not been quite so collaborative - your response to Weepiper's comment about (cis) women being the only people not allowed to discuss what it is to be a woman is an example.

This board can be a difficult place for the voices and experiences of women (cis or trans) to be heard at times, and my perception is that sometimes your posts have not acknowledged that, or indeed have not made common cause with other women in the face of explicit, or implicit sexism.

If my perception is wrong then I apologise.

i probably only ever wade in when i see a reason to disagree and never to express solidarity - so yeah, my bad probably - i should do it more on the boards and not just via PMs or meet ups. But I do feel Urban brings out the worst of me at times.

eta - just to add i don''t often know the gender of the person i'm responding to as if that should make a difference - so I'm not disagreeing with cis women, i'm disagreeing with specific opinions.

 

[Sea Star]

useful idiot and hot headed is how i see the woman who threw the punch, but i still feel she owes everyone a huge apology. On the other hand - i hear the police are looking into things so it's probably going to have to wait until that whole process has been gone through.

eta - poor judgement was displayed by both sides in this matter, and apologies from everyone and a commitment to pursuing our differences through peaceful means would be my preferred option.

A fair debate with fair representation from all sides in this and not a heavily-loaded-with-known-TERFs panel and a trans woman that 99% of trans women really do not trust who has a history of abuse within our community and who speaks at odds with the mainstream of the trans community on every issue.

 

[Jonti]

I suppose I have a dog in this race also, as a cancer survivor I have had both testicles removed ( 5 years apart) and was prescribed synthetic testosterone, due to horrendous mood swings I no longer bother with it, it has made me a lot more inwardly calmer ( on the synthetic testosterone I was either a seething mass of anger or ready to burst into tears at the slightest provocation). I now like my chilled inner self, the only down side being I'm just not bothered about sex or a relationship which doesn't bother me in the slightest.

In answer to SpookyFrank I have seen transgenders online referring to their girldicks with pride, quite a lot of the vocal ones seem to have no desire to transition and have a problem with straight men not wanting anything to do with them.

Now to me this is not an identity problem, it's just a sexual fetish.

Not just a fetish no. But George Melly did say losing his sex drive (just due to age in his case) was like being unchained from a lunatic .

Any man would be a fool (or terribly sheltered) to deny that for some men having a pair of lady boobs as well as a dick would have its attractions. A search on girldicks provides all the evidence one could need for this assertion

It's mad isn't it, that the owners of girldicks can be indignant at straight men not wanting them as sexual partners. Except of course they've gone to a lot of trouble, and would be expert partners too (knowing exactly what to do with the male organ etc, of course).

There's a twitter account I follow which proclaims in its header "Dykes don't like dick". I thought it was hardly necessary to make such a point of it. It took me a while to understand. Madness upon madness, our friends with the girldicks "know themselves to be" women, so of course should be able to sleep with lesbians.

Anyone who's interested in male sexual behaviour (what goes on is largely unacknowledged) could do well to start with this book.

 

[Sea Star]

It's mad isn't it, that the owners of girldicks can be indignant at straight men not wanting them as sexual partners. Except of course they've gone to a lot of trouble, and would be expert partners too (knowing exactly what to do with the male organ etc, of course).

There's a twitter account I follow which proclaims in its header "Dykes don't like dick". I thought it was hardly necessary to make such a point of it. It took me a while to understand. Madness upon madness, our friends with the girldicks "know themselves to be" women, so of course should be able to sleep with lesbians.

except many cis women who identify as lesbian do find trans women attractive and I happen to be with a straight guy who was with me from early pre-op days and IT just wasn't an issue.

I think you're talking out of your arse, being deliberately provocative and offensive, hideously transphobic - erasing the experiences of people you don;t agree with .

It has been reported as transphobic. I hope others will do too. Or are double standards at play on these boards?

 

[Jonti]

Steady on. This isn't something *you* have to deal with

 

[Clair De Lune]

Steady on. This isn't something *you* have to deal with

Do you have to deal with it then?