Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[belboid]

yep, one other person who had a dog in the race also said the links were shit. i still think they're fairly clear.

and yes they are jut a couple of examples - but I have many more. from spreading false accusations of sexual assault against activists, threats of physical violence (which i've receieved personally on numerous occasions - once for questioning the wording of a headline about transgender law change in Sweden entitled '21st Century Eugenics in Sweden') to regular abuse on grounds of racism, transphobia, sexism, bigotry, etc for the most trivial of disagreements...

i'd have thought you'd have learnt a few more things about the godawful nature of this movement after your time in the ISN, and going through The Kinky Split.

It would seem like you dont really care about this, and just want to reheat some years old argument. Yawn. The other person 'with a dog in the race' was actual on your side, btw. And as for people who vilely slandering others, did you read AuntiStella's first post in this thread? About one of the organisers of this meeting doing exactly that to her?

All you have done is reveal the astounding fact that some people can be arseholes. Especially on twitter. But you are using that as a way to ignore the actual oppressions people face. That is shameful.

 

[Sea Star]

Probably that she was considered unsuitable.

but you have no idea why - so it's not a relevant part of this discussion

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Probably that she was considered unsuitable.

You don't know why, so perhaps you should stop with this fact-free speculation.

 

[LDC]

Fucking hell this thread is getting horrible.

Whatever you all think and say, I'd just like to say you're all my comrades.

 

[SpookyFrank]

the overwhelmingly predominant culture of the trans-activist movement, and the modern identity politics movement

I'm afraid I'm going to need to see your working out there mate. Some evidence for an overwhelmingly predominant culture of violence within trans activism.

Because historically when groups of marginalised people are dismissed as violent or fanatical, it's been used as a pretext for those who are fanatically and violently opposed to those marginalised people making their voices heard.

 

[weepiper]

because if you did you would also have to exclude some cis women and is that really what you want?

It's unlikely any discussion billed as being about "breastfeeding, endometriosis, vaginal mesh transplants, PCOs" etc. would attract many trans women - but to specifically exclude them and not cis women who haven't experienced any of these issues is just bizarre.

As for "childcare" being something that only cis women might need to discuss though - very odd. Don't trans people have children?

This debate right now is getting off scot free with respect to AFAB trans people, which i know a lot of TERFs are in denial about. But if you exclude trans people from all the above you will be excluding trans men too.

I don't know what AFAB stands for?

 

[Das Uberdog]

It would seem like you dont really care about this, and just want to reheat some years old argument. Yawn. The other person 'with a dog in the race' was actual on your side, btw. And as for people who vilely slandering others, did you read AuntiStella's first post in this thread? About one of the organisers of this meeting doing exactly that to her?

All you have done is reveal the astounding fact that some people can be arseholes. Especially on twitter. But you are using that as a way to ignore the actual oppressions people face. That is shameful.

i can only assume from the fact that you continually refuse to see what is happening in front of your face, in terms of the huge and increasing numbers of people engaging collectively in anti-social behaviour and calling it 'liberation politics', is that you're a charlatan and you don't really give a shit about any of it.

and now you're defending the use of antifa-style aggression against a bunch of radfems.

utterly disgraceful

 

[Sea Star]

Read my previous post. Perhaps I should have deleted the first line of the quote to make it clear I was referring to Tara.

i read your post as this anyway - never saw it as being about me. I guess because i was never refused treatment but i did self medicate for a while.

 

[belboid]

I don't know what AFAB stands for?

assigned female at birth

 

[Sea Star]

i can only assume from the fact that you continually refuse to see what is happening in front of your face, in terms of the huge and increasing numbers of people engaging collectively in anti-social behaviour and calling it 'liberation politics', is that you're a charlatan and you don't really give a shit about any of it.

and now you're defending the use of antifa-style aggression against a bunch of radfems.

utterly disgraceful

the arguments have run out now. Posturing begins.

 

[Sea Star]

assigned female at birth

i have used it in full a few times - so was hoping that as those supporting the TERF position have been so avidly reading my posts, as I have theirs, they'd have noticed.

 

[Das Uberdog]

I'm afraid I'm going to need to see your working out there mate. Some evidence for an overwhelmingly predominant culture of violence within trans activism.

Because historically when groups of marginalised people are dismissed as violent or fanatical, it's been used as a pretext for those who are fanatically and violently opposed to those marginalised people making their voices heard.

I posted the evidence earlier - but here's one about Identity politics in general... the protests on Evergreen campus.

 

[Jonti]

Belboid, I'm sorry I laughed at you for not understanding that DNA is unaffected by treatments for gender dysphoria. I read incessantly, and have a great interest in science. I can assume things are generally known, when this is not in fact the case. I recognise your interest is in politics.

Your DNA determines your biological sex: the kind of skeleton you have, the type of germ cells you produce, and of course your genitals and secondary sexual characteristics. That's the material basis of biological sexual identity (not that the developmental process always proceeds as it should ~ developmental mishaps can occur and people with misformed or even dual sets of genitals are sometimes born).

Gender identity on the other hand is socially constructed. It's about what sort of personality is acceptable in a man, or in a woman; what varieties of gender expression are permissible in the culture, indeed what range of gender identities is recognised.

In my view, our culture has rigid sex roles that people are fitted into willy-nilly, and this pressure can cause very real distress and lead people to seek medical assistance. Where they feel their body is wrong for them, they are said to have gender dysphoria (a neutral medical term).

All that can be offered is to medically alter the individual patient to fit better into one of the rigid sex-roles on offer. Preferable, might be a social response which allows people to be who they are in the body they were born with.

 

[Das Uberdog]

or the mass victimization of Justine Sacco

 

[SpookyFrank]

and now you're defending the use of antifa-style aggression against a bunch of radfems.

Antifa-style aggression? What does antifa have to do with it?

I think I preferred it when the average liberal hypocrite hadn't heard of antifa tbh.

 

[Sea Star]

Rape/sexual assault survivor groups, where the presence of men and people that might look like men (sorry if that's a clumsy way of phrasing it) is traumatizing and/or limits the ability to access help for some.

i don't look like a man. I also happen to be a rape survivor. So? Where does that leave me?

eta - to make it not about me - where does that leave any trans woman who does not "look like a man" whatever that is - does that also exclude butch looking women? Is gender non-conformancy now a reason for people being triggered in safe places?

Given that trans women - statistically - are more likely to be raped and be subjected to sexual abuse than cis women it does seem a tad discriminatory.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

All that can be offered is to medically alter the individual patient to fit better into one of the rigid sex-roles on offer. Preferable, might be a social response which allows people to be who they are in the body they were born with.

This is all rather high-handed. Have you asked any transgender people what they think?

 

[Das Uberdog]

Antifa-style aggression? What does antifa have to do with it?

I think I preferred it when the average liberal hypocrite hadn't heard of antifa tbh.

read the tweets from the activists before they showed up. you don't see some transference from the antifa language regarding neo-nazis in the US?

if you don't, you're blind

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Antifa-style aggression? What does antifa have to do with it?

I think I preferred it when the average liberal hypocrite hadn't heard of antifa tbh.

tbf there is language calling terfs fascists.

 

[belboid]

i can only assume from the fact that you continually refuse to see what is happening in front of your face, in terms of the huge and increasing numbers of people engaging collectively in anti-social behaviour and calling it 'liberation politics', is that you're a charlatan and you don't really give a shit about any of it.

and now you're defending the use of antifa-style aggression against a bunch of radfems.

utterly disgraceful

oh fuck off and stop bullshitting. I have not defended the assault, I have said repeatedly it was unsurprising. I've told people with much better politics than this radfem you are defending to stop being pillocks and not to provoke a reaction. When they've been hit, I wasn't particularly enthusiastic about defending them either.

 

[Das Uberdog]

the arguments have run out now. Posturing begins.

says one whose only argument so far has been to talk about how no-one is responding to her points whilst failing to address anyone elses, or understand even why the events which began the thread might even distress people

 

[Das Uberdog]

oh fuck off and stop bullshitting. I have not defended the assault, I have said repeatedly it was unsurprising. I've told people with much better politics than this radfem you are defending to stop being pillocks and not to provoke a reaction. When they've been hit, I wasn't particularly enthusiastic about defending them either.

you said they were asking for it. and you'd have to point me to the first post where you said the violence wasn't acceptable because the first time i remember reading it was you claiming that you'd said it previously

 

[Das Uberdog]

10+ of your posts in this thread were to question whether the assault happened, say she deserved it and dismiss its significance

 

[Das Uberdog]

that is your knee-jerk response to the situation - you don't see why people might find this incident shocking. that in itself is fucking appalling.

 

[Jonti]

This is all rather high-handed. Have you asked any transgender people what they think?

I think that was uncalled for.

I do think it would be better if we had a culture that accepted human diversity, instead of medically altering people to fit in. I don't need to run that opinion past anyone for political approval.

 

[Sea Star]

Belboid, I'm sorry I laughed at you for not understanding that DNA is unaffected by treatments for gender dysphoria. I read incessantly, and have a great interest in science. I can assume things are generally known, when this is not in fact the case. I recognise your interest is in politics.

Your DNA determines your biological sex: the kind of skeleton you have, the type of germ cells you produce, and of course your genitals and secondary sexual characteristics. That's the material basis of biological sexual identity (not that the developmental process always proceeds as it should ~ developmental mishaps can occur and people with misformed or even dual sets of genitals are sometimes born).

Gender identity on the other hand is socially constructed. It's about what sort of personality is acceptable in a man, or in a woman; what varieties of gender expression are permissible in the culture, indeed what range of gender identities is recognised.

In my view, our culture has rigid sex roles that people are fitted into willy-nilly, and this pressure can cause very real distress and lead people to seek medical assistance. Where they feel their body is wrong for them, they are said to have gender dysphoria (a neutral medical term).

All that can be offered is to medically alter the individual patient to fit better into one of the rigid sex-roles on offer. Preferable, might be a social response which allows people to be who they are in the body they were born with.

haven't we already dealt with all this bullshit? I'm not dealing with it again.

 

[belboid]

Belboid, I'm sorry I laughed at you for not understanding that DNA is unaffected by treatments for gender dysphoria. I read incessantly, and have a great interest in science. I can assume things are generally known, when this is not in fact the case. I recognise your interest is in politics.

Your DNA determines your biological sex: the kind of skeleton you have, the type of germ cells you produce, and of course your genitals and secondary sexual characteristics. That's the material basis of biological sexual identity (not that the developmental process always proceeds as it should ~ developmental mishaps can occur and people with misformed or even dual sets of genitals are sometimes born).

Gender identity on the other hand is socially constructed. It's about what sort of personality is acceptable in a man, or in a woman; what varieties of gender expression are permissible in the culture, indeed what range of gender identities is recognised.

In my view, our culture has rigid sex roles that people are fitted into willy-nilly, and this pressure can cause very real distress and lead people to seek medical assistance. Where they feel their body is wrong for them, they are said to have gender dysphoria (a neutral medical term).

All that can be offered is to medically alter the individual patient to fit better into one of the rigid sex-roles on offer. Preferable, might be a social response which allows people to be who they are in the body they were born with.

Thank you for being patronising and the Biology 101. It doesn't alter the fact that you were wrong to say 'Every cell of their body is has XY chromosomes'

 

[Sea Star]

I think that was uncalled for.

I do think it would be better if we had a culture that accepted human diversity, instead of medically altering people to fit in. I don't need to run that opinion past anyone for political approval.

Oh, i do think trans people have a say on this. Our bodies. Our experiences. How can you presume to think you have any idea?

 

[Das Uberdog]

It would seem like you dont really care about this, and just want to reheat some years old argument. Yawn. The other person 'with a dog in the race' was actual on your side, btw. And as for people who vilely slandering others, did you read AuntiStella's first post in this thread? About one of the organisers of this meeting doing exactly that to her?

All you have done is reveal the astounding fact that some people can be arseholes. Especially on twitter. But you are using that as a way to ignore the actual oppressions people face. That is shameful.

you say you want to see evidence then when it's provided -in terms of documenting a political event that you personally went through - you ignore it casually offhand.

dishonest debating tactics here, when the real issue is that you don't think it's significant that trans-activists have just physically assaulted some TERFs and seem to think it's totally justified

 

[belboid]

10+ of your posts in this thread were to question whether the assault happened, say she deserved it and dismiss its significance

I have never questioned that the assault happened, nor said she deserved it. I do believe it is being ludicrously overblown to support a reactionary argument.