Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[belboid]

Ah yes, Mermaids UK. Lovely name.

Here's a link to a recently reported case of a 7-year-old child in the UK who was removed from the custody of his mother. The court found that the child had been essentially groomed into a transgender identity by his mother. UK charity Mermaids was banned from contact with the mother and child.

You say "They just let the child be who they cay they are" but the Family Court found different.

'Mother Must Never Be Upset.' - do you really want to promote an article that uses such a phrase repeatedly?

 

[Red Sky]

give me a reason why cis women would want to organise without trans women other than bigotry. If there was a reason....?

Because they have a different lived experience?

 

[Shechemite]

'Mother Must Never Be Upset.' - do you really want to promote an article that uses such a phrase repeatedly?

Which article regarding that case would be acceptable to you? There's been a few

 

[Das Uberdog]

You seem to be deliberately trying to deny nuance here. Lots of people, including Stella, have repeatedly said that they do not defend the punching. And you also appear to be disregarding the agenda of the person assaulted, and how it all started - someone trying to get her camera off her suspecting, or just plain knowing, that the photos taken of them right in their faces were going to be used for malicious purposes. I have a lot of sympathy with the person who grabbed the camera. Having sympathy for that action does not mean you defend everything else that happened, and you're being disingenuous here in pretending that this is what other people are saying. They're explicit about not saying that.

people say they don't defend the punching, or don't condone the violence, yet the entire discussion is couched in demonising the TERFs and providing justifications for these wild, out of control brats.

seriously, it's actually mad that there are lefties out there whose response to this still hasn't got to 'maybe this is getting a little out of hand'.

the links belboid wasn't able to understand earlier in the thread gave a snapshot of the different bits of madness being perpetrated in the name of varied branches of the Identity politics movement - all united by this weird justification of antifa-style agression against political competition on the left.

bizarre, mad and frankly disgraceful.

 

[Sea Star]

But earlier you yourself noted that impact of testosterone on strength.

i haven't had any T in me in 3.5 years. Of course, you have no idea what my T levels were before i transitioned. Many trans women naturally have T levels in what is considered to be the normal female range - and that can go the other way too.

Muscles aren't like bones. They disappear quickly if not used or if T is removed.

 

[Sea Star]

people say they don't defend the punching, or don't condone the violence, yet the entire discussion is couched in demonising the TERFs and providing justifications for these wild, out of control brats.

Your whole aim here is to take the punch out of context and then point at it and shout "male violence" but it's just not washing I'm afraid. Hardly anyone is falling for it.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Ah yes, Mermaids UK. Lovely name.

Here's a link to a recently reported case of a 7-year-old child in the UK who was removed from the custody of his mother. The court found that the child had been essentially groomed into a transgender identity by his mother. UK charity Mermaids was banned from contact with the mother and child.

You say "They just let the child be who they cay they are" but the Family Court found different.

Meanwhile indoctrination of children into a particular religious identity is so common that the idea of writing a story about one case of it would be absurd. If this case is what you say it is then it's fairly obviously child abuse, which in its many other forms is also far too common to be considered news.

 

[weepiper]

give me a reason why cis women would want to organise without trans women other than bigotry. If there was a reason....?

Because we want to organise around or discuss the ways in which women are oppressed or discriminated against specifically due to our female biology? Childbirth, childcare, breastfeeding, endometriosis, vaginal mesh transplants, PCOS and how those things can be a barrier to us fully participating in society? Why should we not be able to discuss those things just amongst others who have experienced them or are likely to experience them?

 

[SpookyFrank]

people say they don't defend the punching, or don't condone the violence, yet the entire discussion is couched in demonising the TERFs and providing justifications for these wild, out of control brats.

seriously, it's actually mad that there are lefties out there whose response to this still hasn't got to 'maybe this is getting a little out of hand'.

the links belboid wasn't able to understand earlier in the thread gave a snapshot of the different bits of madness being perpetrated in the name of varied branches of the Identity politics movement - all united by this weird justification of antifa-style agression against political competition on the left.

bizarre, mad and frankly disgraceful.

Part of my reaction stems from the fact that, as violence goes, this was all pretty fucking tame. It doesn't seem like anyone involved could possibly have suffered to the same extent as, picking an example at random, a young trans person might suffer from being continually exposed to a bunch of hateful bullshit about her identity being simultaneosuly a mental illness, a complete fiction and an act of violence.

 

[Shechemite]

i haven't had any T in me in 3.5 years. Of course, you have no idea what my T levels were before i transitioned. Many trans women naturally have T levels in what is considered to be the normal female range - and that can go the other way too.

Muscles aren't like bones. They disappear quickly if not used or if T is removed.

And you've noted that your hormone treatment has had a marked effect on your physical strength. Which it would.

And this is one of the reasons for posters referring the attacker as man, and having 'the strength of a man'.

 

[Sea Star]

Because we want to organise around or discuss the ways in which women are oppressed or discriminated against specifically due to our female biology? Childbirth, childcare, breastfeeding, endometriosis, vaginal mesh transplants, PCOS and how those things can be a barrier to us fully participating in society? Why should we not be able to discuss those things just amongst others who have experienced them or are likely to experience them?

because if you did you would also have to exclude some cis women and is that really what you want?

It's unlikely any discussion billed as being about "breastfeeding, endometriosis, vaginal mesh transplants, PCOs" etc. would attract many trans women - but to specifically exclude them and not cis women who haven't experienced any of these issues is just bizarre.

As for "childcare" being something that only cis women might need to discuss though - very odd. Don't trans people have children?

This debate right now is getting off scot free with respect to AFAB trans people, which i know a lot of TERFs are in denial about. But if you exclude trans people from all the above you will be excluding trans men too.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Your whole aim here is to take the punch out of context and then point at it and shout "male violence" but it's just not washing I'm afraid. Hardly anyone is falling for it.

your assumption is that everyone who disagrees with you is simply trying to discredit the concept of trans.

actually they're apalled by the behaviour of trans activists.

that you can't understand why that might be is actually quite shocking.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Because we want to organise around or discuss the ways in which women are oppressed or discriminated against specifically due to our female biology? Childbirth, childcare, breastfeeding, endometriosis, vaginal mesh transplants, PCOS and how those things can be a barrier to us fully participating in society? Why should we not be able to discuss those things just amongst others who have experienced them or are likely to experience them?

Does this ever happen though? Are there actually transwomen gatecrashing endometriosis support groups or is this just a straw man?

 

[LDC]

give me a reason why cis women would want to organise without trans women other than bigotry. If there was a reason....?

Rape/sexual assault survivor groups, where the presence of men and people that might look like men (sorry if that's a clumsy way of phrasing it) is traumatizing and/or limits the ability to access help for some.

 

[belboid]

people say they don't defend the punching, or don't condone the violence, yet the entire discussion is couched in demonising the TERFs and providing justifications for these wild, out of control brats.

seriously, it's actually mad that there are lefties out there whose response to this still hasn't got to 'maybe this is getting a little out of hand'.

the links belboid wasn't able to understand earlier in the thread gave a snapshot of the different bits of madness being perpetrated in the name of varied branches of the Identity politics movement - all united by this weird justification of antifa-style agression against political competition on the left.

bizarre, mad and frankly disgraceful.

Even if your links (and I wasn't the only one to say they were incoherent) are entirely accurate, it is just a couple of examples of people being OTT. which happens in every single sphere of political activity. You are using them, and this case, to say issues around oppression should be ignored, and those people who organise on a basis of oppression should just be fucked off.

No.

 

[SpookyFrank]

your assumption is that everyone who disagrees with you is simply trying to discredit the concept of trans.

actually they're apalled by the behaviour of trans activists.

All trans activists? Or the handful of people involved in this one situation? Because conflating the two kinda gives the impression you have some beef with trans folk in general.

 

[Sea Star]

Part of my reaction stems from the fact that, as violence goes, this was all pretty fucking tame. It doesn't seem like anyone involved could possibly have suffered to the same extent as, picking an example at random, a young trans person might suffer from being continually exposed to a bunch of hateful bullshit about her identity being simultaneosuly a mental illness, a complete fiction and an act of violence.

to me it doesn't compare to the near nervous breakdown i suffered when people started tweeting at me being a child rapist and i was named as a trans male misogynist in the New Statesman - all for insisting on calling myself a woman and daring to be public about it - daring to depart from the acceptable 'man who likes wearing dresses has a sex change' narrative.

 

[Sirena]

And you've noted that your hormone treatment has had a marked effect on your physical strength. Which it would.

And this is one of the reasons for posters referring the attacker as man, and having 'the strength of a man'.

Which may be incorrect because, having been refused (I wonder why?) National Health treatment, she says she has been self-medicating.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Which may be incorrect because, having been refused (I wonder why?) National Health treatment, she says she has been self-medicating.

There is a really nasty undertone to this post. Whatever your beef with stella in terms of her position in this discussion please don't continue with this implied, nudge,nudge, wink, wink personal crap...it's really nasty.

 

[Sea Star]

Does this ever happen though? Are there actually transwomen gatecrashing endometriosis support groups or is this just a straw man?

straw man

 

[Sirena]

Which may be incorrect because, having been refused (I wonder why?) National Health treatment, she says she has been self-medicating.

There is a really nasty undertone to this post. Whatever your beef with stella in terms of her position in this discussion please don't continue with this implied, nudge,nudge, wink, wink personal crap...it's really nasty.

I have no beef with Stella. I was referring to Tara Flik Wood.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Even if your links (and I wasn't the only one to say they were incoherent) it is just a couple of examples of people being OTT. which happens in every single sphere of political activity. You are using them, and this case, to say issues around oppression should be ignored, and those people who organise on a basis of oppression should just be fucked off.

No.

yep, one other person who had a dog in the race also said the links were shit. i still think they're fairly clear.

and yes they are jut a couple of examples - but I have many more. from spreading false accusations of sexual assault against activists, threats of physical violence (which i've receieved personally on numerous occasions - once for questioning the wording of a headline about transgender law change in Sweden entitled '21st Century Eugenics in Sweden') to regular abuse on grounds of racism, transphobia, sexism, bigotry, etc for the most trivial of disagreements...

i'd have thought you'd have learnt a few more things about the godawful nature of this movement after your time in the ISN, and going through The Kinky Split.

 

[Shechemite]

Which may be incorrect because, having been refused (I wonder why?) National Health treatment, she says she has been self-medicating.

Has Tara said this?

 

[Das Uberdog]

All trans activists? Or the handful of people involved in this one situation? Because conflating the two kinda gives the impression you have some beef with trans folk in general.

the overwhelmingly predominant culture of the trans-activist movement, and the modern identity politics movement

 

[Sirena]

It's tedious for Stella to make this discussion all about her.

And pretty low for you to do so.

Read my previous post. Perhaps I should have deleted the first line of the quote to make it clear I was referring to Tara.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Which may be incorrect because, having been refused (I wonder why?) National Health treatment, she says she has been self-medicating.

Just to clarify, you're using another poster's personal medical information to try and win an argument on a public forum?

And you're happy that this is an acceptable way to behave?

 

[Sea Star]

Which may be incorrect because, having been refused (I wonder why?) National Health treatment, she says she has been self-medicating.

lot's of reasons why people are refused treatment by the NHS. Mental health issues might be one - even depression, I know an autistic trans man who was initially refused treatment until he got support to challenge the decision, high blood pressure or issues around liver/kidney health, or it could be something like financial insolvency or unstable home life - or just not fitting whatever cissexist agenda that particular doctor has which could be not appearing to be feminine enough. What reasons did you think?

 

[Treacle Toes]

.


I have no beef with Stella. I was referring to Tara Flik Wood.

Okay. Thanks for clarifying. I do wonder why you would imagine TFW as lying though? Also being refused treatment may be because of what's available, other health issues and/or have a financial implication in terms of the NHS as well wouldn't it?

 

[Sirena]

lot's of reasons why people are refused treatment by the NHS. Mental health issues might be one - even depression, I know an autistic trans man who was initially refused treatment until he got support to challenge the decision, high blood pressure or issues around liver/kidney health, or it could be something like financial insolvency or unstable home life - or just not fitting whatever cissexist agenda that particular doctor has which could be not appearing to be feminine enough. What reasons did you think?

Probably that she was considered unsuitable.

 

[Sea Star]

Where have I made this all about me? Where?