Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[littlebabyjesus]

Well, all I know is that when I was a teenager I was also dysphoric. So much so I went to a doctor. He told me (quite rightly) to fuck off and "stop thinking about it". I was mad at him FOR YEARS. I never felt comfortable in my skin (and to some extent I still don't) and thought I was wrong. It was before the days "gender identity" rhetoric was a thing. I didn't "feel like a woman" precisely because I thought feeling like a woman was the stereotypes I was being forced into. Also sexism. I didn't like being dismissed. I wasn't "like the other girls" (I went to a girls school) and I was an outcasred weirdo becsuse I didn't fit.

Slowly, I realised this feeling has everything to do with how my body (which I REFUSE now to belive is wrong) is coded by society. And how my body would be used and abused by some very sexist people.

So, down with gender. Sex roles are awful.

I'm not a "man in a woman's body" which I've been accused of. . Im *me* with my unique and perfectly fine personality in a *my* female body in a misogynist bullshit sexist society.

And yes, sexism and misogyny is awful.

Not to the same extent, it seems, but I struggled growing up with male gender expectations and still do on occasion. Gender roles are fine if you are comfortable with them (and I'm kind of envious of people who seem to slide easily along with them), not fine at all if you don't, and I suspect that probably most of us have some kind of difficulty, discomfort and disjoint with them.

So where do your experiences and those of weepiper fit in this debate about transgender? I don't know, because I suspect that you may be talking about a different thing. On a different thread recently, scifisam made a very good point about a young boy who liked wearing skirts and was turning up at school in them. She pointed out correctly that he's not necessarily transgender, and we shouldn't be labelling him as such. It does seem that we still very much live in a society where children are not allowed to subvert gender norms without a whole heap of attention being piled onto them and assumptions being made about them.

I agree with you about the destructive nature of gender expectations. But that doesn't make transgender people go away, particularly when they tell you that it's not about that.

 

[Sea Star]

People are just trying to express their personal opinions and it's not about you, it's about the general subject.

Well, you may not think its about me but it is. Most trans women I know tell me not to discuss these topics and to put my health first but if I didn;t who would. I end up feeling distressed beyond belief as a result, because it's about who i am, its about how i go through this world. And to see my identity being trashed hurts like fuck. Still, wouldn't expect anyone who wasn't trans to understand.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Feminism is about what we have in common. There is a diversity of women in the world, black women, disabled women, intersex women, Asian women, poor women, rich women, lesbians - all have different lived experiences, but you want to only exclude trans women. In the past there have been many attempts to exclude women who are different - lesbians and black women among others - and now its the turn of trans women. Of course only a minority of women want to do that and don;t have any kind of clear or coherent reason for doing so. And neither do you.

mate I completely understand why TERF stuff would feel hurtful - but to be honest they have a right to organise and think those things and this thread is in the context of an out of control identity politics movement pursuing them and physically assaulting them, applying a no-platform philosophy which should be reserved for actual Nazis.

there's no excuse for this behaviour, and the fact that the 'movement' is expressly attempting to excuse it is deeply worrying.

 

[19force8]

I see. So when men attack transgender folk, it's women's fault.

Read what I said. If you contribute to an atmosphere of transphobia you are hurting trans people. How can you disagree?

 

[spanglechick]

Well yes. Of course. There are good things about supposed "femininity" - which I think should be accessible to both males and females without judgement - and I can imagine why people would want to reject masculinity if it made them feel uncomfortable in the very gendered society we live in.

And sometimes people need to assume the feminine gender role to feel comfortable with themselves and how the world sees them.

From what I've read about new legislation the journey that transexual people take would be made worthlessu by this bill too because identity just becomes an utterance, and the plan is to replace "sexual reassignment" as a protected characteristic too. No journey necessary.

Well, all I know is that when I was a teenager I was also dysphoric. So much so I went to a doctor. He told me (quite rightly) to fuck off and "stop thinking about it". I was mad at him FOR YEARS. I never felt comfortable in my skin (and to some extent I still don't) and thought I was wrong. It was before the days "gender identity" rhetoric was a thing. I didn't "feel like a woman" precisely because I thought feeling like a woman was the stereotypes I was being forced into. Also sexism. I didn't like being dismissed. I wasn't "like the other girls" (I went to a girls school) and I was an outcasred weirdo becsuse I didn't fit.

Slowly, I realised this feeling has everything to do with how my body (which I REFUSE now to belive is wrong) is coded by society. And how my body would be used and abused by some very sexist people.

So, down with gender. Sex roles are awful.

I'm not a "man in a woman's body" which I've been accused of. . Im *me* with my unique and perfectly fine personality in a *my* female body in a misogynist bullshit sexist society.

And yes, sexism and misogyny is awful.

I had a similar sort of growing up experience. Played with the boys because I knew how to fit in with them. I was rubbish at being a girl, found the toys and games girls were supposed to like utterly boring, couldn't talk to girls the way they seemed to expect me to talk to them or fit in in any way. As I got older and puberty happened it got much worse, I was horrified at my body letting me down and becoming outwardly undeniably female, I tried to hide my breasts with the way I dressed, I didn't want to learn to do makeup, shopping for bras made me feel sick etc etc. These days people would be telling me I was trans and maybe suggesting I should present as a boy. But I wasn't a boy, and I'm still not now. I'm female. My dismay and discomfort were due to what society expected me to look like and behave like and the knowledge that I was never going to be able to fit in enough. Trans people talk about 'passing', well I can tell you that you don't ever get to stop worrying about successfully passing as a woman even if you were born female. We don't get to choose how society judges us.

These kinds of experiences and approaches to the issue do bear weight and are qualitatively different to much of the bigoted terf stuff


As a cis woman, and a feminist, my experience couldn't be more different. I strongly, fiercely and positively identify as female in gender. In fact given my infertility, probably more so in some ways, than I do in biology. Being a man seems pretty comprehensively awful. Yes they're more likely to earn more than me, less likely to be a victim of sexual violence or domestic abuse... but they have to be a man. It's not even close to being worth it. Now I grew up surrounded by kickass women. Neither of my aunts married or had kids, instead they lived exciting lives working abroad, living on their own and treating themselves frivolously. My eldest sister was both a great actor AND a motorbike-riding chemical engineer. My mum left school with no qualifications but went to college when I was four and soon earned more than my dad, as well as ambitiously and successfully managing all our finances. All around me it seemed obvious that women were great and could do anything, and when I came across sexism I was incredulous and angry, not sad. It was just more evidence that I didn't want to be a man because sexist men were clearly really stupid. As a kid I never felt women were limited or that I "should" behave in a certain way. I could do all the cool stuff and I got to play with glitter and hair-styles if I wanted to. Winning!

And that's my story - no more or less valid than either of those above... but for me, gender is a social construct I very strongly feel at home in. My body is the least part of my awesome, fierce womanhood. To me it makes perfect sense that someone else might feel the same, even if their body didn't match. Or that someone with the same biology as me might feel strongly ambivalent about gendered womanhood. Or that they felt that despite their body their feelings and thinking were in line with those of gendered male experience.

Just because something is a social construct doesn't make it not real.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

If it helps, AuntiStella , I'm learning a lot from this discussion. It's useful to see the difficulties and sharp edges in a debate like this because it highlights the important issues. Your contribution is central to what I'm learning because you're vocal and thoughtful and political about your lived experience of being a trans woman. I understand how a lot of things being said here could upset you, but please try not to take it all personally.

As an aside, FabricLiveBaby! and weepiper 's posts about not feeling girly and not fitting is really resonates with me. There being no alternative to the binaries in those days (man-woman, gay-straight), I did wonder if I might be gay, because I was so different to the girly girls.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

So where do your experiences and those of weepiper fit in this debate about transgender?

No one knows because there is no working definition of "gender identity" that isn't circular or sexist, and as a result there's currently no working definition of "trans" either because the current thinking is that being trans is about your gender identity (rather than sexual reassignment).

So until someone can define it we're fucked aren't we?

To be honest, I used to go to a Catholic school although my family weren't religious at all (my family also didn't enforce gender roles). When someone refuses to define what they're talking about of ignore your questions even though they "really feel something" I start smelling a rat. I can't help it because it's exactly what the Nuns who taught me RE used to do.

I worked out a pretty quick why they were doing it and by 14 I was an atheist. I'm starting to smell the same rat here. And I really don't want to. I'm sure Christians feel God (also materially indescribable with vastly differing interpretations) in the same way some people feel their gender identity.

Sorry if I don't believe in it. But quite frankly I don't have to believe in anything that seemingly has no material basis. Because how do we analyse the world and class without materialist philosophy? Do we throw dialectic matetialism and Marxism out the window because out of compassion?

 

[Sea Star]

mate I completely understand why TERF stuff would feel hurtful - but to be honest they have a right to organise and think those things and this thread is in the context of an out of control identity politics movement pursuing them and physically assaulting them, applying a no-platform philosophy which should be reserved for actual Nazis.

there's no excuse for this behaviour, and the fact that the 'movement' is expressly attempting to excuse it is deeply worrying.

that doesn't answer my point at all. And that's why this thread is tricky for me, people seemingly unable to stick to the point, follow rules of argument and using the chance to push personal slurs instead. It is, franky, an extremely dishonest "debate" and those on the pro-TERF side never miss a chance to put in a bit of a verbal kicking - by misgendering for example, and using our trans identities to accuse of all sorts of bullshit such as "male violence". Take out the lies from this debate and the obvious venom and I could deal with it. anyway I'm here so no patronising please.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

These kinds of experiences and approaches to the issue do bear weight and are qualitatively different to much of the bigoted terf stuff

And yet I've been called a TERF before for having a materialist marxist philosophical standpoint. Funny that. It's almost like it's a thought terminating cliché. A bit like "SJW".

 

[Das Uberdog]

that doesn't answer my point at all. And that's why this thread is tricky for me, people seemingly unable to stick to the point, follow rules of argument and using the chance to push personal slurs instead. It is, franky, an extremely dishonest "debate" and those on the pro-TERF side never miss a chance to put in a bit of a verbal kicking - by misgendering for example, and using our trans identities to accuse of all sorts of bullshit such as "male violence". Take out the lies from this debate and the obvious venom and I could deal with it. anyway I'm here so no patronising please.

well with respect maybe it's your point which is off-topic and not everyone elses.

i'm here because a bunch of teenage id-pol knobheads thought it was Ok to physically assault a 60 year old woman, and then a hefty section of the "left" thought it was acceptable to defend them.

it also concerns me that that the id-pol idiots themselves identify as women but are pre-op and have the physical strength of men, and that is somehow being used to fudge the issue that effectively, this woman was punched by someone with the strength of a man.

 

[Sea Star]

As an aside, FabricLiveBaby! and weepiper 's posts about not feeling girly and not fitting is really resonates with me. There being no alternative to the binaries in those days (man-woman, gay-straight), I did wonder if I might be gay, because I was so different to the girly girls.

I wonder how butch dyke trans women fit into this mix.

Personally i never felt "girly" in my life until recently I have begun to understand what some women mean by this. But I define myself as a tomboy. The whole gender expression being conflated with gender identity needs to stop. I do see trans people doing it too and it seems to have become part of the narrative of transitioning stories now - I liked dolls or I hated dolls, etc. Well, I played with lego, and mechano and liked building things, and messing about in the woods - just like many cis women i know. So - it shouldn't be discussed as part of this at all. Red herring.

As for definitions - I'd like to see the TERF side come up with some definitions first. This sort of this is always going to be tricky to define and every definition of "Woman" I've seen so far excludes some cis women. But it's something trans people get hit with a lot and it's basically used as a way to silence us and to enable TERFs to disregard everything we say.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sorry if I don't believe in it. But quite frankly I don't have to believe in anything that seemingly has no material basis. Because how do we analyse the world and class without materialist philosophy? Do we throw dialectic matetialism and Marxism out the window because out of compassion?

I think a lot of the analysis you've presented here is spot on, but the material basis for the existence of transgender people is the lived experience of those people themselves. This is one reason why I would much prefer it if we cast away attempts to identify some kind of biological determinant. It seems fruitless and beside the point. There does not have to be a 'gay gene' for there to be a material basis to homosexuality - there is, the material basis is the lived experience of homosexual people. And I think this is a similar situation - the reality of transgender should not need to depend on some kind of external justification any more than the reality of homosexuality, which was also dismissed once upon a time as delusion or mental illness.

 

[SpookyFrank]

that doesn't answer my point at all. And that's why this thread is tricky for me, people seemingly unable to stick to the point, follow rules of argument and using the chance to push personal slurs instead. It is, franky, an extremely dishonest "debate" and those on the pro-TERF side never miss a chance to put in a bit of a verbal kicking - by misgendering for example, and using our trans identities to accuse of all sorts of bullshit such as "male violence". Take out the lies from this debate and the obvious venom and I could deal with it. anyway I'm here so no patronising please.

The chant of 'no to male violence' in that video has the word 'male' vocally underlined. You can tell that the message they're really putting across is not 'we don't like violence' but 'we don't think you count as women'. There's a gleeful, childlike sneer to it which is quite upsetting coming from an adult.

 

[Sea Star]

well with respect maybe it's your point which is off-topic and not everyone elses.

i'm here because a bunch of teenage id-pol knobheads thought it was Ok to physically assault a 60 year old woman, and then a hefty section of the "left" thought it was acceptable to defend them.

it also concerns me that that the id-pol idiots themselves identify as women but are pre-op and have the physical strength of men, and that is somehow being used to fudge the issue that effectively, this woman was punched by someone with the strength of a man.

but the person the TERF first attacked was a young assigned female at birth non-binary person. And I really don't see anyone defending the punch. Explaining maybe. Pointing out that it was as much to do with TERFs inciting a response and starting the violence as it was about the actual response. What I posted earlier specifically said they did not condone the attack. But whatever it was it's a far cry from what your side is trying to say - that this was an attack by men on a weak and vulnerable old lady. She was stopped from assaulting someone that she would have defined as a girl or young woman. So what now? Keep on accusing people like me of being violent, misogynist men? No - I'm completely on topic. Way more on topic than you have been so far.

 

[Sea Star]

The chant of 'no to male violence' in that video has the word 'male' vocally underlined. You can tell that the message they're really putting across is not 'we don't like violence' but 'we don't think you count as women'. There's a gleeful, childlike sneer to it which is quite upsetting coming from an adult.

that passes for peaceful and honest debate with these people.

 

[Das Uberdog]

The chant of 'no to male violence' in that video has the word 'male' vocally underlined. You can tell that the message they're really putting across is not 'we don't like violence' but 'we don't think you count as women'. There's a gleeful, childlike sneer to it which is quite upsetting coming from an adult.

so that's why it was good that the Id-pol kiddlywinks physically attacked them

 

[SpookyFrank]

so that's why it was good that the Id-pol kiddlywinks physically attacked them

You do know that in real life it's possible for more than one person to be in the wrong at the same time?

e2a: And if you're really opposed to violence you should do something about it besides standing on the sidelines egging on the side you ostensibly oppose with some bullshit school playground chanting.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

but the material basis for the existence of transgender people is the lived experience of those people themselves.

With respect, and I appreciate you want to bridge a gap (we all do), this isn't materialism.

The material basis of transgender people is very easily explained through the submission / dominance roles of imposed male and female gender roles. Reproduced through culture, capitalism and patriarchy.

Those who don't conform are marginalised.

It accounts for everything. It allows transgender people to exist without having to add immaterial notions of gender identity.

Occasionally razor.

 

[Das Uberdog]

but the person the TERF first attacked was a young assigned female at birth non-binary person. And I really don't see anyone defending the punch. Explaining maybe. Pointing out that it was as much to do with TERFs inciting a response and starting the violence as it was about the actual response. What I posted earlier specifically said they did not condone the attack. But whatever it was it's a far cry from what your side is trying to say - that this was an attack by men on a weak and vulnerable old lady. She was stopped from assaulting someone that she would have defined as a girl or young woman. So what now? Keep on accusing people like me of being violent, misogynist men? No - I'm completely on topic. Way more on topic than you have been so far.

Both videos clearly show the 'attack' you're talking about began after the woman in question tried to grab the TERF's camera.

The second video shows that that also came seconds after a crowd of the kids mobbed her for getting too close

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

but the material basis for the existence of transgender people is the lived experience of those people themselves.

With respect, and I appreciate you want to bridge a gap (we all do), this isn't materialism.

The material basis of transgender people is very easily explained through the submission / dominance roles of imposed male and female (That's your material) gender roles. Reproduced through culture, capitalism and patriarchy.

Those who don't conform are marginalised.

It accounts for everything. It allows transgender people to exist without having to add immaterial notions of gender identity.

Use Occams Razor.

 

[chilango]

The times (with regards to filming on actions and political events of various ilks) have a-changed grandad!

Indeed, and I don't like it.

 

[Sea Star]

I think a lot of the analysis you've presented here is spot on, but the material basis for the existence of transgender people is the lived experience of those people themselves. This is one reason why I would much prefer it if we cast away attempts to identify some kind of biological determinant. It seems fruitless and beside the point. There does not have to be a 'gay gene' for there to be a material basis to homosexuality - there is, the material basis is the lived experience of homosexual people. And I think this is a similar situation - the reality of transgender should not need to depend on some kind of external justification any more than the reality of homosexuality, which was also dismissed once upon a time as delusion or mental illness.

the science i like best - doesn't look for a cause but does show how real the phenomena is, even for very young children - that and the improved diagnosis techniques which have pushed desistance down to just above 0% puts the case nicely as far as I'm concerned, that trans is real and cannot be justifiably ignored. I'm afraid we can't do away with science because it'll be numbers and evidence that gets us the rights we need. OK - so we don;t need to know which bit of our neurology caused us to feel like this or be like this and we don't need to know the events that led to our neurology being like this, but we do need to know how to identify it, how to accomodate and support it, and we do need to prove it's real before the state will give us the right to be equal humans in our own genders. So more studies like this with larger numbers of kids is what I'd like.

 

[SpookyFrank]

With respect, and I appreciate you want to bridge a gap (we all do), this isn't materialism.

The material basis of transgender people is very easily explained through the submission / dominance roles of imposed male and female (That's your material) gender roles. Reproduced through culture, capitalism and patriarchy.

Those who don't conform are marginalised.

It accounts for everything. It allows transgender people to exist without having to add immaterial notions of gender identity.

Use Occams Razor.

*Someone who doesn't know what Occam's razor means klaxon*

*PhD proposal disguised as forum post klaxon*

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I wonder how butch dyke trans women fit into this mix.

Personally i never felt "girly" in my life until recently I have begun to understand what some women mean by this. But I define myself as a tomboy. The whole gender expression being conflated with gender identity needs to stop. I do see trans people doing it too and it seems to have become part of the narrative of transitioning stories now - I liked dolls or I hated dolls, etc. Well, I played with lego, and mechano and liked building things, and messing about in the woods - just like many cis women i know. So - it shouldn't be discussed as part of this at all. Red herring.

Is it a red herring though? This opening up of the spectrum is healthy for all people. Hopefully, as transpeople and non-binary gendered people become more accepted and more visible in society, young children will benefit and be allowed to grow up without having those binary systems forced upon them.

A friend of mine has just graduated as a teacher. She told me the other day that when she first started out as a TA ten years ago, there was never any question about referring to the children as "boys and girls". The faculty at her school is now discussing how they can avoid this kind of easy lazy binary categorisation. That discussion would never have taken place without the ongoing debate in the wider community.



(She said that on the first day of reception class, they tend to separate the children into "Boys line up here, girls line up over there". My friend said that it's now recognised that at that age, children barely know whether they're a "boy" or a "girl" and it's the school imposing those binaries that makes the kids begin to interpret and incorporate those categories, or attempt to. She said they she used to interpret the vague milling about of the kids as lack of attention or experience about lining up or whatever, but she's come to recognise that a lot of the kids just have never put themself into "Boy or "Girl" boxes in their own head before.)






Anyway, I'm not equipped to join the deeper political debate but I'm reading and learning a lot.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

With respect, and I appreciate you want to bridge a gap (we all do), this isn't materialism.

The material basis of transgender people is very easily explained through the submission / dominance roles of imposed male and female (That's your material) gender roles. Reproduced through culture, capitalism and patriarchy.

Those who don't conform are marginalised.

It accounts for everything. It allows transgender people to exist without having to add immaterial notions of gender identity.

Use Occams Razor.

Fair enough. I recognise that I misunderstood the way you were meaning that. I don't think I agree with this particular bit of analysis though. It's too neat, and it doesn't account for why X is transgender and Y isn't. Nor does it account for the various transgender appearances in non-capitalist societies. I don't know of any human culture that doesn't have gender roles assigned to the two biological sexes. If anything our current society and culture gender roles have softer edges to them than many non-capitalist societies.

 

[chilango]

Direct Action is surely another way of saying propaganda of the Deed.



Propaganda of the deed - Wikipedia

What would be the point of Direct Action if nobody payed any attention to it? As it not being acceptable. I don't think it's acceptable to say you can't take photographs in public places. It's also pretty absurd to go to Speakers Corner, of all places, and not expect to encounter cameras or confrontation.

Direct action is not the same as propaganda of the deed.

I think it's perfectly acceptable for me (or anyone els) to not want to be filmed or photographed and to challenge people overriding this wish.

But, y'know, I'll just stay away from protests where people are cool with it.

*shrugs*

 

[Shechemite]

*Someone who doesn't know what Occam's razor means klaxon*

*PhD proposal disguised as forum post klaxon*

Going to answer my question upthread or just make snide comments?

 

[Das Uberdog]

You do know that in real life it's possible for more than one person to be in the wrong at the same time?

i can disagree with the cranky 70s radfems til the cows come home, it doesn't change the fact this in *this situation* right and wrong are played out so clearly that to focus on what i disagree with the rad fems on would be really quite perverse.

without playing into a battle on the question of whether or not, within the 'women's movement', trans-women should occupy the same place as women-women a few things that i think are totally within reasonable bounds to say are:

1) you shouldn't use no-platform tactics against non-fascists
2) self-identity is not, practically speaking, a special 'out' card in relation to assaulting a woman
3) people on the 'left' should not be trying to rationalize this attack, it should be condemned outright (whether "provoked" by mean chants or otherwise)
4) that as these kinds of attitudes are being expounded and adopted across the Id-pol movement - a kind of 'antifa+' idea of how to deal with internal disputes on the left and between competing identities in the intersectionlist inverted pyramid hierarchy, the actual left needs to nip them in the bud and recognise the severe cultural problem we are developing amongst young activists in our midsts

 

[tim]

Direct action is not the same as propaganda of the deed.

I think it's perfectly acceptable for me (or anyone els) to not want to be filmed or photographed and to challenge people overriding this wish.

But, y'know, I'll just stay away from protests where people are cool with it.

*shrugs*

You can object and challenge but you have no right or justification for attacking then physically.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You can object and challenge but you have no right or justification for attacking then.

hmmm. Someone takes photos of me and I know, or very strongly suspect, that they're going to be 'doxxing' - they're going to be plastering my image around the place and using these photos against me. I take their camera and smash it on the ground. I have 'no right or justification' for doing that?