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Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

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The idea that females "feel" a certain way and have a gender identity or "type of female brain" is a load of misogynist fucking shite IMO and you all know it.

It's so sad seeing it repeated as a thing on this forum.

It's the very notion that kept women from having the vote, and the increasing pink/blue genderisation of kids is going to be a huge fucking problem.

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It's part of the same old conservatism and misogyny that has held women back for so long, no wonder it's the Tories heading this, and no wonder female children are increasingly becoming disphoric (as I was). No one likes being shoved into boxes.

The question "what is gender" (outside of ouf sex - which is observable, and which despite denial DOES exist- and is the cause of sexism) is a fucking valid one to ask seeing affects mainly women, and any proposed legislation will affect mainly women - who are already marginalised - with regard to current sex based protections.

No one seems to be able to define what "feeling like a woman" or having a "female gender identity" actually is without being circular or sexist (and I'm still waiting for an answer after two years of asking... It's like radio silence). So that these debates are being shut down by the left is surprising. Or maybe it isn't, maybe they are being shut down because they have no actual answers and are afraid of an "emperors new clothes moment". Who knows. No one, because no one is allowed to ask without threats of violence, accusations of bigotry or now, it seems ACTUAL violence.

Certainly no one is willing to answer.

Why should we be legislating for something no one is willing to discuss?

And do we really believe that the Conservative government under Maria Millier as equalities minister has anyone's best interests at heart? I mean ffs she constantly votes for anti - women and anti gay legislation. Does that not ring ANY alarm bells?

Meanwhile a 60 year old female is beaten by an apparent male but it's a-ok cos that bitch deserved it, and that male identifies as a woman so it isn't male violence, material analysis of the roots of opression (like wot Marx does) are no longer acceptable in left wing politics, and women should just believe they have a gender identity without asking what that even means.

Fucking ridiculous.
 
Das Uberdog said:
also the idea that through the magic of self-identification one can simply take on a new power-position within society is frankly mad
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It's not about simply taking on a new power-position. It's about an extensive psychological and physical process of gendering, not "simply" putting on a dress and saying "I'm a woman".
 
19force8 said:
... There's a limit to the amount of vicious crap I'm going to wade through on holiday [or any other time]. I started at page 1, got to the bottom of page 2 and skipped to the penultimate page to see if it got any better...

... you can just fuck right off with your fucking hate speech you twisted turd.
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You were so dismayed by the abuse on the thread, you decided to add your own.

What a guy!
 
AuntiStella said:
and chromosomes have no active part in sexing the body once it's developed. All the heavy lifting is done by hormones. I actually don't give a frig about my chromosomes. And apart from the probability that they are indeed XY - this is by no means a certainty and I've never been able to get them tested. Who knows for sure what chromosomes they have?

After taking estrogen for nearly 4 years i am identified as female. That's all i ever wanted. So the whole you can't change your chromosomes is so wide of the mark of being a valid point. It's like shouting at a recently converted building - but you can't change your blueprints! Who gives a fuck?
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But its not just hormones that define sex either is it? Because there's lots of women - some intersex women, women with PCOS and other hormonal disorders, women taking hormone suppressant medication or even testosterone to treat endometriosis and some forms of cancer - that are very much both women and female but don't have typical female hormone levels - and in some case might even have typical male hormone patterns. Just to add that I'm adding this to say how complicated this all is, not to undermine your identity in any way.
 
FabricLiveBaby! said:
So that these debates are being shut down by the left is surprising.
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Are they, where? I agree with a lot of what you posted but neither of these groups are 'left'. In fact from what I've seen this whole fight has very little to do with the 'left'.

FabricLiveBaby! said:
Meanwhile a 60 year old female is beaten by an apparent male but it's a-ok cos that bitch deserved it, and that male identifies as a woman so it isn't male violence, material analysis of the roots of opression (like wot Marx does) are no longer acceptable in left wing politics, and women should just believe they have a gender identity without asking what that even means.
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Who on this thread has stated the bold? (Or the last sentence for that matter).
 
crossthebreeze said:
But its not just hormones that define sex either is it? Because there's lots of women - some intersex women, women with PCOS and other hormonal disorders, women taking hormone suppressant medication or even testosterone to treat endometriosis and some forms of cancer - that are very much both women and female but don't have typical female hormone levels - and in some case might even have typical male hormone patterns. Just to add that I'm adding this to say how complicated this all is, not to undermine your identity in any way.
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Taking testosterone for medical reasons does not give you typical male hormone patterns. But yes, it's more complicated than an oestrogen/testosterone dichotomy.
 
campanula said:
Unfair, I didn't suggest exclusion for transwomen 'as a group'...because I don't ascribe to the idea of a group of anyone having all the same specific issues. But hey - I have vaginismus - a deeply painful, life fucking up issue and I tell you now, I would welcome sharing a space, a support group with fellow sufferers...but those who are not dealing with this have fuck all business intruding. Making demands based on the heterogenity of any entire group is always going to fuck up on specifics.
And my second question? You have no rights of exclusion? Just who gets to decide who gets to go?
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Is people turning up to support groups for conditions they don't have a real issue though? Has it ever actually happened?
 
redsquirrel said:
Are they, where? I agree with a lot of what you posted but neither of these groups are 'left'.

Who on this thread has stated the bold? (Or the last sentence for that matter).
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1) What if they self-identity as left (joke)? I dunno, it seems like only one group is actually using a material based analysis of opression which IS lefty tradion. But what do I know. As far as I'm aware the what-was-supposed-to-be panel discussion was set up by a Momentum member.

2) It's hyperbolic (deliberately so) of me, and yes a rhetorical device but there have been accusations (here and I'm wider circles) that whoever that feminist was was being goady by taking pictures and therefore deserved it. That is the start of a slippery slope which ends up with violence aimed at marginalised classes (in this case sex class).
 
Magnus McGinty said:
I was putting it in perspective.
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No you were being dismissive. Trans people do die as a result of prejudice you know. Maybe there are not enough deaths to interest you but if that's the case, maybe just don't bother with posting on threads like this.
 
SpookyFrank said:
No you were being dismissive. Trans people do die as a result of prejudice you know. Maybe there are not enough deaths to interest you but if that's the case, maybe just don't bother with posting on threads like this.
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Trans people die at the hands of men due to being perceived as a class traitor. It's a similar reason gays and lesbians are beaten.

Transwomen are a traitor to their sex class by taking on feminine signifiers of the gender system reserved for the female sex class in order to keep them in a subordinates position so that their reproductive labour can be exploited by patriarchy (a proto capitalist system).

Homosexuality forms the same thing. Homosexuality disrupts the reproduction of the next generation of labourers by throwing a spanner in the works of heteronirmativity. Homosexual men in particular was criminalised because the dominated position of men was weakened by some men taking on subordinate roles I'm sex.

Sex is the material basis that all this shite comes from.





People : Read your Marx and Engels.
 
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No one seems to be able to define what "feeling like a woman" or having a "female gender identity" actually is without being circular or sexist (and I'm still waiting for an answer after two years of asking... It's like radio silence). So that these debates are being shut down by the left is surprising. Or maybe it isn't, maybe they are being shut down because they have no actual answers and are afraid of an "emperors new clothes moment". Who knows. No one, because no one is allowed to ask without threats of violence, accusations of bigotry or now, it seems ACTUAL violence.

Certainly no one is willing to answer.
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There is a quote by Simone de Beauvoir ('The Second Sex') that I like and it goes "One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman".

There is a transgender person I know who, seventeen years after her operation (21 years after first transition) had the realization that she had finally 'become' a woman: that if she was not now a woman. then she was nothing. I thought that was a very deep thing.

It also suggests that simply making the statement 'I am a woman' may not be a statement to end discussion but one to begin discussion: that it marks the beginning of a journey rather than the end. If there were any way of measuring the journey it would produce a middle ground that could satisfy both feminists and trans people.

The main objection from feminists is that a person who declares themself a woman has not had the experiences of a woman: the joys and miseries of the social situation of being a woman. But a person who has been a woman for 21 years has had just that.
 
Why the aggression? :(

That caused me a doubletake too, but I think it was fairly clear from the context that it's a portmanteau expression for man-transitioning-to-woman. It seems from what Sirena says that that can be a lengthy process that takes years to complete.

There's nothing wrong with remembering where one comes from, and how one got to one's present.
 
Sirena said:
There is a quote by Simone de Beauvoir ('The Second Sex') that I like and it goes "One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman".

There is a transgender person I know who, seventeen years after her operation (21 years after first transition) had the realization that she had finally 'become' a woman: that if she was not now a woman. then she was nothing. I thought that was a very deep thing.

It also suggests that simply making the statement 'I am a woman' may not be a statement to end discussion but one to begin discussion: that it marks the beginning of a journey rather than the end. If there were any way of measuring the journey it would produce a middle ground that could satisfy both feminists and trans people.

The main objection from feminists is that a person who declares themself a woman has not had the experiences of a woman: the joys and miseries of the social situation of being a woman. But a person who has been a woman for 21 years has had just that.
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Sure. When Simone De Beauvior wrote that she was talking about the gendered socialisation that girls go through. You are born a sex, you are put into a social box and then trained into your subordinate position.

That's where sex stereotypes come from.

It's also why trans people have their concept of "passing" and "not passing". When (If) you pass you start to become "treated as a woman". However it's very difficult to "pass" if you're born a male, not only because of sex characteristics but also because males are socialised differently to females and they have to unlearn all of that subconscious socialisation. And some people never do.

Have a long hard think about what that might mean to become a woman.

You become treated as the subordinate sex class is treated.

Now after 21 years it's perfectly possible to be treated "as a woman" and therefore "become a woman" but being born female one would have to ask (and plenty do - plenty of teen girls wanting to transition) "why would anyone want that?", and why would we do away with male/female socialisation (gender) all together?

Besides, as far as your friend is concerned, there are already provisions through the sex reassignment process to cater for those people that would be more comfortable living as a woman.

The problem with this bill, is that it doesn't take into account De Beauvior's observation. It does quire the opposite and says "one is born a woman" meaning "your subordination is innate".
 
So going back to my original question, WTF? Reading all the different comments etc, Am I right in summarizing that a group of people calling themselves feminists are very negative to a group of people described as transgender. The feminists held a meeting in a park of which the transgender attended and the two groups had verbal and physical disagreements.
 
None of us are free or separate from our past, our upbringing, culture, aspirations and expectations of everyone who has passed through our lives...and women who were ONCE men, still carry the baggage from being in a different (privileged) headspace. The human psyche is dynamic, not fixed in space...so it must be acknowledged that we are the sum of our parts. The differences in expectation between men becoming women and women becoming men (seemingly less problematic...but that could be me being unaware).

So, is essentialism a forbidden thing for some of us but absolutely alright when the agenda fits. There are a lot of arguments flying about here and socking someone in the face is the idiots method of addressing them.

This whole thing is part of a longer struggle.
 
So going back to my original question, WTF? Reading all the different comments etc, Am I right in summarizing that a group of people calling themselves feminists are very negative to a group of people described as transgender. The feminists held a meeting in a park of which the transgender attended and the two groups had verbal and physical disagreements.
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Your original question? You mean in the thread title? That reads to me as if you are negative and confused/all WTF about the subject of 'transgenderism'. Coupled with your example and comments on the thread, it seems you have particular issue with those who transition from male to female, and have used this example to somehow prove a point. What exactly is that point, can you summarise it please?
 
The Flying Pig said:
So going back to my original question, WTF? Reading all the different comments etc, Am I right in summarizing that a group of people calling themselves feminists are very negative to a group of people described as transgender. The feminists held a meeting in a park of which the transgender attended and the two groups had verbal and physical disagreements.
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The meeting was elsewhere, that was the rendezvous point.
 
The Flying Pig said:
So going back to my original question, WTF? Reading all the different comments etc, Am I right in summarizing that a group of people calling themselves feminists are very negative to a group of people described as transgender. The feminists held a meeting in a park of which the transgender attended and the two groups had verbal and physical disagreements.
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In short it's a fight between two types of political philosophy.

Idealists: those who believe thoughts form your reality (Butlerites and Postmodernists)

And

Materialists: those who believe material reality affects our thoughts and behaviours (Marxists)

It's really not surprising that the Conservatives are coming down on the side of IdPoler Butlerites. As marxist philosophy was and is in direct contrast to idealist philosophies.

Edit : It's also not surprising that the young Butlerites are fighting through that system, as they grew up in a neoliberal world and have NO idea what class consciousness looks like.
 
Rutita1 said:
Your original question? You mean in the thread title? That reads to me as if you are negative and confused/all WTF about the subject of 'transgenderism'. Coupled with your example and comments on the thread, it seems you have particular issue with those who transition from male to female, and have used this example to somehow prove a point. What exactly is that point, can you summarise it please?
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You are reading far to deep into my original question, I clearly had no idea what was going on in the video, who was who or what was what, I have no objection to anyone transitioning from one being to another and still can't quite understand the contempt and hostility between the two sets of people
 
I'm now getting that the defenceless 60 year old woman in question had a trans person in a headlock at the time she was attacked.

But this seems like one of those things where everyone sees what they want to see and the facts are largely irrelevant.
 
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