Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[comrade spurski]

If your best friend turned to you and said he was a tiger, would you believe him?

.

You object to others claiming you are abusive and demand examples then type this as though it is in anyway a fair way to summarise what is being argued?

On this thread you are dismissive, arrogant, ignorant, aggressive and pretentious.

You have personalised the whole argument and behaved like a political hack from your first involvement in my opinion.

To constantly refer to trans women as he and men is needlessly confrontational and some have said they find it abusive and or dismissive yet you continue to do so because of your experiences.

I know black people who think it's ok to call mixed race people coolies, coloured and deny that they suffer racism...I have known others to use the term paki to describe me...they use the same "I can say this cos of who I am" logic you use and dress it up in puesdo political/intellectual term as you do but like you they are also arrogant and ignorant.

You have beliefs ... they ain't facts. The point of this thread is to debate and to allow as many as possible to access the debate and to stop shouting down others.

I made a similar point to someone on the thread a few weeks ago who was or seemed to be labellng feminists who disagreed with him a TERF. You are the flip side of the coin... and just as fucking irritating.

You called/accused someone on here of being "a childless women derailing a thread"...the person I have seen derailing the thread the most (by a country mile) is you.

 

[Red Cat]

It wouldnt shock me if I used the word in a way totally at odds with my intent, in a way that people might understandably take issue with, since the thought process that went into my post wasnt exactly sophisticated. As soon as I saw boring being used in that context, I just thought of the way it was used in that song, and didnt actually have any useful words of my own to explain what the hell I was doing. I still dont, I'm not that good at trying to explain lyrics at the best of times and right now for my brain this is certainly not the best of times. And maybe my interpretation of the song isnt the same as other peoples, adding further complication. Why am I even staring at a screen right now? The one drawback of ibuprofen preventing the hideous vomit and sleep phase of my migraines is that just a few hours after the migraine aura visual I am tempted to engage in certain activities again despite reduced mental faculties. Please note that this migraine talk is not an attempt to excuse any earlier errors, since that stuff was before the migraine, but rather part of my rambling failure to operate the controls successfully as I attempt to understand and respond to a recent post that made me think I may have made a mistake. Anyway this rambling just gives me another thing to apologise for, I should have waited till tomorrow.

I didn't listen to the song. But you know, we should be able to say something from time to time that someone on here doesn't approve of, it can be discussed can't it?

I get migraines so I sympathise, they can really scramble your brain. I hope you're feeling better.

 

[Athos]

I’d think you can be on multiple teams at once.

Of course. But that wasn't my question to spanglechick. I was asking whether or not, in her experience, it's the feeling of being in 'team female' that makes her a woman. (As opposed to e.g. her being a woman that makes her feel part of 'team female'.)

 

[Red Cat]

Sure, I'd want to treat them sympathetically, which might include treating them as a tree in certain situations, but that's quite different to agreeing that they ARE a tree.

And that is effectively what some of those pushing this 'identity trumps all' transideology demand we do

This, the question of question of reality, is obviously an issue in CAMHS clinics. It was raised at a seminar a couple of years ago, if it is hoped that psychoanalytic ways of working help someone manage reality better without defences of various kinds getting in the way, is addressing a male as a girl going against that, how we would normally work?

 

[Athos]

To constantly refer to trans women as he and men is needlessly confrontational and some have said they find it abusive and or dismissive yet you continue to do so because of your experiences.

In fairness, their whole point is that trans women are men. There's not really a polite way to package that message. If MY is to be allowed to hold and express an opinion here, then trying to police their language is a fool's errand. Especially if you believe:

The point of this thread is to debate and to allow as many as possible to access the debate and to stop shouting down others.

In my opinion, it'd be better to engage with the substance of their arguments e.g. to point out what is wrong with tiger analogy to which you took exception.

 

[andysays]

This, the question of question of reality, is obviously an issue in CAMHS clinics. It was raised at a seminar a couple of years ago, if it is hoped that psychoanalytic ways of working help someone manage reality better without defences of various kinds getting in the way, is addressing a male as a girl going against that, how we would normally work?

Can you clarify what those initials stand for please

 

[Red Cat]

Can you clarify what those initials stand for please

Apologies for assuming. Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services.

 

[Yossarian]

I have been treating this thread more as an opportunity to read and learn than to contribute and debate, but I'm going to suggest that talking about people who think they're trees marks the moment when it should be killed with fire, or at least split into several different threads. Ffs.

 

[Red Cat]

It's a question about reality, a tree is an example. Maybe not a very good one.

There seems to be a lot of ideas about what this thread shouldn't be i.e it shouldn't be what it actually is. What should it be?

 

[bimble]

Red Cat Is there a consensus arrived at on this question (the one raised at that seminar you mentioned)? I mean when a child / young person is referred to someone to talk about gender-related issues is there a guideline telling people to address them as they want to be addressed?

 

[andysays]

Apologies for assuming. Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services.

Apologies accepted.

In that context, I agree it would be absolutely appropriate to address the person in whatever way they preferred, providing that didn't obstruct the treatment.

But while I recognise that you have a particular interest in MH services etc, the debate here, as framed largely by transideology, seems to have gone way beyond issues of therapeutic approaches to gender disphoria and to insist that we all accept functioning males as not only trans women but also as female, simply on their say-so.

This, to me, is more significant and worth discussing than people's individual psychotherapeutic needs.

 

[andysays]

I have been treating this thread more as an opportunity to read and learn than to contribute and debate, but I'm going to suggest that talking about people who think they're trees marks the moment when it should be killed with fire, or at least split into several different threads. Ffs.

Suggestion noted.

I'm going to suggest in turn that you reread and think about how that line of discussion came about, and if you still feel the same way, maybe consider if this thread, or even the whole thing of people discussing things, is really for you.

FFS indeed...

 

[Athos]

Apologies accepted.

In that context, I agree it would be absolutely appropriate to address the person in whatever way they preferred, providing that didn't obstruct the treatment.

But while I recognise that you have a particular interest in MH services etc, the debate here, as framed largely by transideology, seems to have gone way beyond issues of therapeutic approaches to gender disphoria and to insist that we all accept functioning males as not only trans women but also as female, simply on their say-so.

This, to me, is more significant and worth discussing than people's individual psychotherapeutic needs.

I'm not sure how easy out is to disentangle the two. I'm sure that many people use trans people's preferred pronouns not because they believe that trans people are the gender they say they are, but because of the effect of trans people's mental health of not doing so. To validate their self-image (even if if it's not shared) is therapeutic. To me, such an argument based on compassion is more compelling than the philosophical arguments for why trans women are women.

 

[Red Cat]

Apologies accepted.

In that context, I agree it would be absolutely appropriate to address the person in whatever way they preferred, providing that didn't obstruct the treatment.

But while I recognise that you have a particular interest in MH services etc, the debate here, as framed largely by transideology, seems to have gone way beyond issues of therapeutic approaches to gender disphoria and to insist that we all accept functioning males as not only trans women but also as female, simply on their say-so.

This, to me, is more significant and worth discussing than people's individual psychotherapeutic needs.

I agree also it would be absolutely appropriate to address the person in whatever way they preferred, and to not do so would be a violation.

I haven't discussed anyone's individual psychotherapeutic needs, I don't understand why you think I have done so.

 

[Yossarian]

Suggestion noted.

I'm going to suggest in turn that you reread and think about how that line of discussion came about, and if you still feel the same way, maybe consider if this thread, or even the whole thing of people discussing things, is really for you.

FFS indeed...

The whole thing of discussing things with you isn't for me, that's for sure, I'll leave you to your sophistry.

 

[Red Cat]

I'm not sure how easy out is to disentangle the two. I'm sure that many people use trans people's preferred pronouns not because they believe that trans people are the gender they say they are, but because of the effect of trans people's mental health of not doing so. To validate their self-image (even if if it's not shared) is therapeutic. To me, such an argument based on compassion is more compelling than the philosophical arguments for why trans women are women.

To validate someone's self-image is not therapeutic when they think they're a monster, or fat when they're thin.

 

[pengaleng]

this thread is a basic fucking embarrassment.

 

[Red Cat]

Red Cat Is there a consensus arrived at on this question (the one raised at that seminar you mentioned)? I mean when a child / young person is referred to someone to talk about gender-related issues is there a guideline telling people to address them as they want to be addressed?

NHS policy is that you address people as they want to be addressed.

The issue in the seminar was the person had a worry that they were colluding with something harmful. There wasn't a consensus, it was talked about as something that is becoming more prevalent and that needs to be thought about.

 

[Shechemite]

To validate someone's self-image is not therapeutic when they think they're a monster, or fat when they're thin.

Indeed, and therapy has as a goal, in large part, the ability to adapt oneself to the environment, rather than relying on attempts to make the environment adapt to oneself

 

[smokedout]

Suggestion noted.

I'm going to suggest in turn that you reread and think about how that line of discussion came about, and if you still feel the same way, maybe consider if this thread, or even the whole thing of people discussing things, is really for you.

FFS indeed...

The transgender taxonomy depends on thousands, if not millions of personal testimonies and similar phenomena occurring throughout almost all human cultures. It is also based on a condition in most cases called gender dysphoria, a persistent feeling that your body, or social role is wrong that can emerge in infanthood and often never goes away unless it is addressed with some form of transition to another way of expressing being a human - not a cat or tree. This condition has a clear diagnostic framework, a treatment path and if left untreated can destroy lives. So not like wanting to be a tree at all, and it's a pretty fucking offensive and dismissive comparison.

 

[bimble]

This condition has a clear diagnostic framework..

So, its an illness? I thought you wanted to get rid of the whole medical approach.

 

[smokedout]

To validate someone's self-image is not therapeutic when they think they're a monster, or fat when they're thin.

There were decades of trying to treat transgendrism with talking cures, drugs and therapy, just like there was homosexuality. It didn't work, what happens now mostly works, or certainly works better. This isn't something that just happened with no medical or empirical basis.

You can't cure a transsexual, any more than you can cure someone who is gay, and a lot of people were brutally damaged by attempts to do just that.

 

[smokedout]

So, its an illness? I thought you wanted to get rid of the whole medical approach.

It's a condition that's alleviated by allowing people to live as they feel most comfortable.

 

[pengaleng]

bassiiiiiic.

 

[andysays]

The transgender taxonomy depends on thousands, if not millions of personal testimonies and similar phenomena occurring throughout almost all human cultures. It is also based on a condition in most cases called gender dysphoria, a persistent feeling that your body, or social role is wrong that can emerge in infanthood and often never goes away unless it is addressed with some form of transition to another way of expressing being a human - not a cat or tree. This condition has a clear diagnostic framework, a treatment path and if left untreated can destroy lives. So not like wanting to be a tree at all, and it's a pretty fucking offensive and dismissive comparison.

Maybe you should take that up with the poster who brought up the question of trees, houses and cats, and whether they have an innate essence, which wasn't me

 

[Red Cat]

There were decades of trying to treat transgendrism with talking cures, drugs and therapy, just like there was homosexuality. It didn't work, what happens now mostly works, or certainly works better. This isn't something that just happened with no medical or empirical basis.

You can't cure a transsexual, any more than you can cure someone who is gay, and a lot of people were brutally damaged by attempts to do just that.

Don't put words into my mouth. I didn't say it was a symptom to be treated in the way you describe.

What does the Tavistock do?

 

[comrade spurski]

In fairness, their whole point is that trans women are men. There's not really a polite way to package that message. If MY is to be allowed to hold and express an opinion here, then trying to police their language is a fool's errand. Especially if you believe:



In my opinion, it'd be better to engage with the substance of their arguments e.g. to point out what is wrong with tiger analogy to which you took exception.

I ain' policing anyone' language...it was MY who complained about Pickfords language.

For you to diminish my post to language policing is either disingenuous, a blatant lie or a complete misunderstanding of my post.

The is a complete lack of honest debate by a select few on this thread which is aimed to intimidate, hector, confuse others and a level of political and intellectual vanity that is frankly pathetic. MY accuses others of rudeness and abusive behaviour yet behaves in a way I see intellectually bankrupt politicos and wanky managers behaving...the passive aggressive mocking and patronising deliberate misrepresenting others views and the constant "you have misunderstood" and "what exactly do you mean by ?" comments are aimed at cheap point scoring.


Using an analogy about the tiger was clearly meant to mock. If some one said they were a tiger it would not be worth taking seriously so equating that to this subject is plainly fucking stupid.

It is possible to express a personally held view that you disagree that transwomen are not the same as non trans women without insisting on calling a trans person a man when they have said they do not wish to be addressed that way.

I do not understand this issue, I am confused about language, the law and rights but I do understand the need for an honest discussion, the need to stop hatred and bigotry, the need to move forward but mostly I understand that MY is offering very little if anything to help in any of these areas in my opinion.

 

[Athos]

It's a condition that's alleviated by allowing people to live as they feel most comfortable.

I guess the rub come when allowing others to live according to their own beliefs crosses into compelling others to profess those beliefs. In most cases, it's a matter a courtesy with no real consequence to those from whom it's expected. But it becomes more difficult in the marginal cases e.g. women only rape shelters.

Also, you seem to want to eat your cake and have it, switching between it being a condition that retirees a therapeutic response on the one hand, and a desire to demedicalise it on another.

 

[Athos]

It is possible to express a personally held view that you disagree that transwomen are not the same as non trans women without insisting on calling a trans person a man when they have said they do not wish to be addressed that way.

Their view isn't just that there is a difference between cis and trans women (if it was, that could hardly be controversial). It's that trans women are men. To ask them to make that point without saying trans women are men (and to decline to engage with the substance of their argument in the meantime) is effectively to ask them not to make the point. It's a slightly longer route to '#nodebate'. Which I don't think is very useful to anyone.

I do not understand this issue, I am confused about language, the law and rights but I do understand the need for an honest discussion, the need to stop hatred and bigotry, the need to move forward but mostly I understand that MY is offering very little if anything to help in any of these areas in my opinion.

I think their answers offer the opportunity for rebuttal, to anyone who wants to engage with the content rather than the way they're expressed.

 

[Red Cat]

There were decades of trying to treat transgendrism with talking cures, drugs and therapy, just like there was homosexuality. It didn't work, what happens now mostly works, or certainly works better. This isn't something that just happened with no medical or empirical basis.

You can't cure a transsexual, any more than you can cure someone who is gay, and a lot of people were brutally damaged by attempts to do just that.

I just re-read my post. I was quite specifically taking issue with the idea that telling people what they want to hear is therapeutic. This seems to be a common idea atm.

I honestly don't know what is most helpful for young people with gender dysphoria. The aim of psychoanalytic psychotherapy in the UK (as practised at the Tavi) is to help a young person feel happier in their own skin, regardless of presenting symptoms, so they feel less need to defend themselves in ways that get in the way of their relationships. It's not a symptom focused treatment. But it's not 'supportive' psychotherapy either. Do you know if the Tavi GIDS does more supportive psychotherapy, have they modified their approach?

btw I don't have an agenda. You reply to my posts as though you think I have an agenda.