Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[pengaleng]

Maybe she likes the chipped distressed look, like the finger version of designer ripped jeans?

and fuck yous i get all my best looks from Vogue

 

[Athos]

How do I know? Because the author of that piece would have mentioned if they had

An assumption on your part.

 

[pengaleng]

Yep, and to sell more & more advertising space full of products to make you more feminine.

well we all know who aint using femfresh now init

 

[MochaSoul]

Indeed. But they're the same arguments some level at trans people.

On a non-pragmatic level... is she wrong? I don't know. I'm conscious I'm "reacting" to claims on gender against my lived experience. Won't decide until I know more.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yep, and to sell more & more advertising space full of products to make you more feminine.

In other words, why pick on the trans woman in the image and not the six cis women?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

It's Vogue. All Vogue wants of women is their dosh.

And they do that by asserting femininity is integral to womanhood, and making it impossible to obtain without consumerism.

(s)Lees is rich and can afford to perform it. It's unobtainable for most women (globally) bogged down with boring stuff like looking after kids, emotionally trying to hold families together, being forced through labour, and generally being poor, or unable to vote, or *literally* being second class citizens.

Vogue can fuck off, as well as the "feminist heroes" on that cover.

 

[pengaleng]

I think Vogue is being misrepresented, femininity is integral to womanhood wherre??

 

[MochaSoul]

Yep, and to sell more & more advertising space full of products to make you more feminine.

Well... it seems economically advantageous to start wooing the new pool.

 

[Athos]

On a non-pragmatic level... is she wrong? I don't know. I'm conscious I'm "reacting" to claims on gender against my lived experience. Won't decide until I know more.

Sorry, I don't understand this post.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

I think Vogue is being misrepresented, femininity is integral to womanhood wherre??

Feminity is not just a look, tho. It's the whole cultural learned set of "clothes and performance over everything else". Brainz don't count.

"New season LADIES! Stay in fashion! You don't want to look OLD and UNCOOL and BORING. Buy our stuff! Stay relevant AND CHIC (but not fat eww)! And remember to spend LOADSA CASH!"

 

[MochaSoul]

Sorry, I don't understand this post.

That's because I put a "she" where it should have be an "it" as in "Is it wrong to attempt philosophical parallels between the two situations? Of course, it became incomprehensible. Sorry about that.

 

[MochaSoul]

In other words, why pick on the trans woman in the image and not the six cis women?

Consider the commercial possibilities of the subliminal message "We can make a man look more feminine than you."

 

[Miranda Yardley]

In other words, why pick on the trans woman in the image and not the six cis women?

Because they are women and he's not.

 

[Athos]

That's because I put a "she" where it should have be an "it" as in "Is it wrong to attempt philosophical parallels between the two situations? Of course, it became incomprehensible. Sorry about that.

Ah, I see, now.

I think there are some obvious and significant parallels. And that many of the attempts to deviate don't stand much scrutiny.

However, I still have a feeling that one (transgender) is 'real and the other (transracial) is not. But I'd like to understand why.

 

[elbows]

Like the fact Paris Lee would probably have had the vote 100 years ago type of absurdities?

That one certainly didnt escape attention.

In other words, why pick on the trans woman in the image and not the six cis women?

And in my case I brought it up to have a go at those who think the important thing is to accuse cis women in the article of betraying the feminist cause by appearing in something with Paris Lees.

It seems especially stupid to me because I read a whole bunch of shit that stemmed from this that managed to give me absolutely no insight about what anybody who appeared in that article actually said. I did just find an article that gives an idea what Stella Creasy said.

Top Facebooker Stella Creasy brands herself ‘the anti-Sheryl Sandberg’

Now the Labour MP and self-declared “feminist champion” Stella Creasy has made it very clear where she stands in the debate over the Facebook boss' style of feminism.

“There’s definitely a Mean Girls-style Burn Book in politics – patriarchy isn’t gendered – but the way we talk about other women is important," Creasy tells Vogue for a piece in the February 2018 issue on seven influential females fighting to empower women in the battle for equality.

She adds: "Women should be believed, because coming forward about harassment is hard. I see the pressure to close down the debates, to say systems are in place, but if so, they’re not working.

“I’m the anti-Sheryl Sandberg. For me, it’s not about leaning in, it’s about building an army. Progress can happen. My mistake was thinking that it would be easy.”

That apparently matters not to some people, who think the priority is to accuse her of betrayal for appearing with someone they'd like to shout man at.

 

[Pickman's model]

Because they are women and he's not.

Yeh back to the auld duality. Whatever happened to the third way?

 

[MochaSoul]

Ah, I see, now.

I think there are some obvious and significant parallels. And that many of the attempts to deviate don't stand much scrutiny.

However, I still have a feeling that one (transgender) is 'real and the other (transracial) is not. But I'd like to understand why.

I thought I understood it until the last few days.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Because they are women and he's not.

Ah, you're good at it. I'll give you that. Finding new and pithy ways to slip in the deliberate misgender.

 

[pengaleng]

Feminity is not just a look, tho. It's the whole cultural learned set of "clothes and performance over everything else". Brainz don't count.

"New season LADIES! Stay in fashion! You don't want to look OLD and UNCOOL and BORING. Buy our stuff! Stay relevant AND CHIC (but not fat eww)! And remember to spend LOADSA CASH!"

and that doesnt sound like over reacting at all

 

[D'wards]

There's a transgender woman newsreader in Celebrity Big Brother at the mo, India something. Ann Widdecombe and Rachel Johnson (Boris' sister) have both referred to her as he, despite looking like a woman (the fact she has her tits out needlessly very often should reinforce this to them).
They claim its cos they're "dinosaurs" but i think its cos they're Tory arseholes

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There's a transgender woman newsreader in Celebrity Big Brother at the mo, India something. Ann Widdecombe and Rachel Johnson (Boris' sister) have both referred to her as he, despite looking like a woman (the fact she has her tits out needlessly very often should reinforce this to them).
They claim its cos they're "dinosaurs" but i think its cos they're Tory arseholes

It's because that's what they're being paid to be there to say.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

and that doesnt sound like over reacting at all

If anything, it's under reacting (IMHO obvs) cuz there's an awful lot more to culturally unpack. We are imbibed (I love that word) by the culture around us and reflect and reject facets of ourselves due to the culture (some good or bad) that seeks to force itself down our throats dressed as "nature".

It ain't just masculinity and femininity, it's race, capitalism, class. All of it's expectations are written into us *through culture* to reinforce subjugation and domination. Certain peeps are deemed to be better than others. It's how life works. It's reassuring to understand the real-world, material, reasons why that is.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

There's a transgender woman newsreader in Celebrity Big Brother at the mo, India something. Ann Widdecombe and Rachel Johnson (Boris' sister) have both referred to her as he, despite looking like a woman (the fact she has her tits out needlessly very often should reinforce this to them).
They claim its cos they're "dinosaurs" but i think its cos they're Tory arseholes

Maybe it's because they're women who object to a man like India telling them what to do?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

If anything, it's under reacting (IMHO obvs) cuz there's an awful lot more to culturally unpack. We are imbibed (I love that word) by the culture around us and reflect and reject facets of ourselves due to the culture (some good or bad) that seeks to force itself down our throats dressed as "nature".

It ain't just masculinity and femininity, it's race, capitalism, class. All of it's expectations are written into us *through culture* to reinforce subjugation and domination. Certain peeps are deemed to be better than others. It's how life works. It's reassuring to understand the real-world, material, reasons why that is.

I typed all that, a lickle pished, and then realised I was sitting next to this..

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Maybe it's because they're women who object to a man like India telling them what to do?

You appear to take a certain amount of glee in repeatedly doing this. I can see why sea star can't stand you.

 

[D'wards]

Maybe it's because they're women who object to a man like India telling them what to do?

India is a woman and she's not telling them what to do

I think I need to read back over the thread to unpick this one

 

[Treacle Toes]

My mistake edited out.

 

[spanglechick]

Me too. The message I'm getting lately is that if I see things this way then I should simply self identify as 'agender', job done.

Or gender non-conforming? I would say, if it came up, that I personally am cis gendered but also gender non-conforming because i have not conformed with the social expectations of my gender.

I still have no idea what qualities this "inner sense of man or woman" is supposed to have.

None at all. I have zero fucking idea. And no one can explain it. It's SO FRUSTRATING. If one is going to say that some has a particular quality, then one should fucking be able to state what that quality fucking is.

It's all smoke and mirrors, afaics because until someone can quantify it we might as well be talking about nothing.

To reprise what i said a couple of months ago, I do feel like cis is a good word to describe me, and i do feel that I have a gender identity that is separate from socially conditioned gender roles, and biological sex. That doesn’t mean that i think everyone else does: i imagine that the extent and nature of a person’s perception of gender is part of their psychological sense of self.

I consider myself very strongly cisgendered, while not conforming to a great many social gender roles and being critical of the very existance of those roles. Because of this, I have not issue reconciling the idea of some people experiencing gender identity with my feminism.

So what is my gender identity? I’m not sure I think of it in terms of qualities, so I can’t name any non-social-role female qualities. I just have a very passionate sense that regardless of my inability and unwillingness to fulfill my biological and social functions as a woman, that I am “team female’ - the idea of being a man horrifies and upsets me, not because of any biological or social reason i can identify, but because it would mean I wouldn’t be a woman.

And if i feel like that, it seems reasonable that someone else might have all the same feelings while having different chromosomes and genitals and social expectations.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I just have a very passionate sense that regardless of my inability and unwillingness to fulfill my biological and social functions as a woman, that I am “team female’ - the idea of being a man horrifies and upsets me, not because of any biological or social reason i can identify, but because it would mean I wouldn’t be a woman..

Not going to say the poster's name as I don't want to drag them into this thread at this particular juncture, but this sounds strikingly similar to the description by a trans man on these here boards of his experience of identifying as male.

 

[Red Cat]

When I use the word socialisation, I use it thinking of it as an active process very much as you describe. And this is where I think an innate component may come into play - in that we are born primed to look for certain kinds of things in the world. That we are primed to look for language and also a sense of morality are relatively uncontroversial ideas; that this might extend to something like a gender identity is seemingly a lot more controversial.

I haven't replied because I don't really have anything to say in response but didn't want to give the impression I was ignoring you. I don't find the idea controversial as such, I just don't know what it means outside of the ways we currently have of looking at these things i.e biological sex, development of selves in gendered societies.