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Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

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At what point does the insistence on treating people according to ''what I see'' turn into agreeing to treat people according to ''what they request''? Like if ones friend John or Jane, apropos of not a lot, decides one day they'd rather be called Alex, would one call them Alex, or the name one had always used? What would be the rationale, one way of the other?

I'm curious as to what levels we work at, with respect to doing what someone else wants rather than what I myself deem to be correct. For myself, working with people with mental health needs and learning disabilities, my default is to treat people how they wish, rather than how I wish. But I understand not everyone does the same, and that some people's limits in this regard may be different from my own.

Depends. When a acquaintance joined the Bhagwan crew, he changed his name to Kabba. Personally, I just couldn't bring myself to not refer to him as Steve...unless it was to annoy him more by calling him 'Taxi'...but you know - the Orange loons?
My eldest was pretty insistent he wanted to be called 'James' (Bond!) and then 'Martin' (for some obscure, unarticulated reason) Naturally, I ignored this completely. However, I was OK to comply with his friend's request to be called 'Sam' instead of Kerry Crisp.

There aren't really points... or lines in the sand...just vague sets of circumstances with a million variables.
 
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Now it's my turn to apologise. I didn't intend to suggest you were discussing anyone's individual therapeutic needs.

I was trying to say that while I appreciate that you and others may want to discuss psychotherapeutic issues as they may relate to transgender people, I personally don't wish to get involved in that aspect.

I don't really apart from in the broadest sense, I was using it more as an example of the kind of conflict between ideas that may occur in mental health settings. Given the large rise in referrals to CAMHS due to gender identity issues, it seems important to me to think about these aspects.
 
Depends. When a acquaintance joined the Bhagwan crew, he changed his name to Kabba. Personally, I just couldn't bring myself to not refer to him as Steve...unless it was to annoy him more by calling him 'Taxi'...but you know - the Orange loons?
I had a friend who was born into that cult :(. She then changed her name from the 3 syllables of sanskrit stuff to .. Amy. I think call people whatever they want to be called is a good rule.
 
I had a friend who was born into that cult :(. She then changed her name from the 3 syllables of sanskrit stuff to .. Amy. I think call people whatever they want to be called is a good rule.

Yeah, but he was a prick...and I considered my prickishness was more minor than his (which was gargantuan tbh).
 
At what point does the insistence on treating people according to ''what I see'' turn into agreeing to treat people according to ''what they request''? Like if ones friend John or Jane, apropos of not a lot, decides one day they'd rather be called Alex, would one call them Alex, or the name one had always used? What would be the rationale, one way of the other?

I'm curious as to what levels we work at, with respect to doing what someone else wants rather than what I myself deem to be correct. For myself, working with people with mental health needs and learning disabilities, my default is to treat people how they wish, rather than how I wish. But I understand not everyone does the same, and that some people's limits in this regard may be different from my own.
I hope I haven't given the impression that I believe I or anyone should call or treat someone else based simply on what I as an individual see or think. It's that sort of individualist approach I'm arguing against.

Someone is or is not a tree or a human, male or female, not because of what I think, but because those words have fairly clear meanings which most of us understand and agree on.

When it comes to personal names, I'm happy to call anyone by whatever name they prefer, including if someone who was previous called Andrew now wants to be called Andrea. That's in no way controversial, I don't think.
 
No, of course. So my question is, at what point does the focus change from I'll treat you how you want, to I'll treat you how I want.

I'm genuinely interested, I believe this question sits close to the heart of this issue
 
No, of course. So my question is, at what point does the focus change from I'll treat you how you want, to I'll treat you how I want.

I'm genuinely interested, I believe this question sits close to the heart of this issue
I don't think I would phrase your question in the same way.

I would express it something like 'I will treat you the same way I treat everyone else and the way I expect to be treated myself, including respecting your views and ability to live however you chose free from discrimination. But I won't accept any attempt from you to impose your ideology or beliefs on me, especially when your demands appear to me to conflict with reality as it is generally understood'

Don't know if that answers your question or is in any way helpful.
 
I don't think I would phrase your question in the same way.

I would express it something like 'I will treat you the same way I treat everyone else and the way I expect to be treated myself, including respecting your views and ability to live however you chose free from discrimination. But I won't accept any attempt from you to impose your ideology or beliefs on me, especially when your demands appear to me to conflict with reality as it is generally understood'

Don't know if that answers your question or is in any way helpful.

It's a long answer that boils down to I'll treat you how I want, or how you want as long as it's what I want too.

I'm not judging that, I'm interested in any honest response. It seems to me that this is a pretty fundamental question of attitude, and it deserves frank and honest examination.
 
It's a long answer that boils down to I'll treat you how I want, or how you want as long as it's what I want too.

I'm not judging that, I'm interested in any honest response. It seems to me that this is a pretty fundamental question of attitude, and it deserves frank and honest examination.
It's a longish answer because the question warrants such an answer, rather than a simplistic one.

Again, I wouldn't phrase it quite as you have re-phrased it, but the alternative seems to be 'I'll behave exactly as you demand, regardless of my feelings or the material consequences for me or anyone else, and in areas which don't just affect you personally but which have implications for well established and agreed social norms'

That's why I don't accept some of the more extreme demands of identitarian trans ideology, of which we've seen various examples on this thread.
 
It's a fundamental principle of just about every really civilized society there's ever been; treat others as you would wish to be treated. It's a religious principle all over the world, it's a cornerstone of (what I'm going to call) judaeo-christian liberalism, the worldview most of us here grew up in and take for granted. Generally, it's a good way to go about the world.

But. Amazingly, there is a but.

There's a dark corollary to do as you would be done by, which is essentially I'm OK with this - why wouldn't anyone be OK with this? And it's not hard to see why that attitude causes trouble - but it's an attitude that seems to be everywhere, I'm not even pointing any particular fingers, I'm as guilty of it as anyone. It's like the shade of liberalism.

We have a society that teaches kids, You can be whatever you want!
Then they try, and society says, Oh no, not that.
It's pretty fucked up, that's not my opinion it's a S0L1D FACKT

EtA, I added something but it added nothing.
 
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I didn't mean to. I think it's pretty obvious how difficult it is to have a sensible discussion of this topic, sadly!

Sorry, I was a bit curt. I'm just very aware that, a bit like mothers and schools, mental health services are either not good enough or expected to provide everything, but the reality is you're always working within a context of uncertainty.
 
Sorry, I was a bit curt. I'm just very aware that, a bit like mothers and schools, mental health services are either not good enough or expected to provide everything, but the reality is you're always working within a context of uncertainty.

No problem. I wasn't really focusing on MH services so much as wider society, anyway.
 
It's a fundamental principle of just about every really civilized society there's ever been; treat others as you would wish to be treated. It's a religious principle all over the world, it's a cornerstone of (what I'm going to call) judaeo-christian liberalism, the worldview most of us here grew up in and take for granted. Generally, it's a good way to go about the world.

But. Amazingly, there is a but.

There's a dark corollary to do as you would be done by, which is essentially I'm OK with this - why wouldn't anyone be OK with this? And it's not hard to see why that attitude causes trouble - but it's an attitude that seems to be everywhere, I'm not even pointing any particular fingers, I'm as guilty of it as anyone. It's like the shade of liberalism.

We have a society that teaches kids, You can be whatever you want!
Then they try, and society says, Oh no, not that.
It's pretty fucked up, that's not my opinion it's a S0L1D FACKT

EtA, I added something but it added nothing.
I've offered my approach, for whatever it's worth. I'd be interested in hearing yours.

I'd also be interested in hearing more about what you say about this dark corollary, because it doesn't seem to me to follow from my approach at all (I would say that though, wouldn't I)
 
It's a fundamental principle of just about every really civilized society there's ever been; treat others as you would wish to be treated. It's a religious principle all over the world, it's a cornerstone of (what I'm going to call) judaeo-christian liberalism, the worldview most of us here grew up in and take for granted. Generally, it's a good way to go about the world.

But. Amazingly, there is a but.

There's a dark corollary to do as you would be done by, which is essentially I'm OK with this - why wouldn't anyone be OK with this? And it's not hard to see why that attitude causes trouble - but it's an attitude that seems to be everywhere, I'm not even pointing any particular fingers, I'm as guilty of it as anyone. It's like the shade of liberalism.

We have a society that teaches kids, You can be whatever you want!
Then they try, and society says, Oh no, not that.
It's pretty fucked up, that's not my opinion it's a S0L1D FACKT

EtA, I added something but it added nothing.
Yeh kids are taught you can be whatever you want but any aspirations quickly knocked out of them - you can go to uni and study whatever you want but you'll saddle yourself with a burden of debt previous generations haven't known
 
I've offered my approach, for whatever it's worth. I'd be interested in hearing yours.

I posted before I really try to treat people however they want, as long as that's clear to me. Otherwise yeah, I default to do as you would be done by, seems OK to me (cultural background etc)

I'd also be interested in hearing more about what you say about this dark corollary, because it doesn't seem to me to follow from my approach at all (I would say that though, wouldn't I)

Fair enough, it's something I've noticed, in myself and around me in life. I think it is a kind of corollary to do as you would be done by, I think even abusive behaviour can happen under the impression that I would be OK with this, I am OK with this, why wouldn't anyone be OK with this?

Anyway, it's verging on off-topic so apologies for that.
 
I posted before I really try to treat people however they want, as long as that's clear to me...
Literally however they want, with no qualifications, no consideration of your own feelings or needs, or whether what they want reflects any socially agreed way of behaving or might have adverse effects on you, them or anyone else?

I find that difficult to believe, TBH, and even if it's true I don't think it's a good or healthy way to behave towards others
 
No, of course. So my question is, at what point does the focus change from I'll treat you how you want, to I'll treat you how I want.

I'm genuinely interested, I believe this question sits close to the heart of this issue
I think I can genuinely say that I don't reason things out in that way. U75's 'don't be a dick' would be a decent place to start. imo deliberately misgendering people for effect, for instance like Miranda Yardley has repeatedly done on this thread, is 'being a dick'.
 
Seems to me that a lot of this stuff sounds fine in theory but becomes fraught with difficulties when it might be played out in real people's interactions. Misgendering is a good example. Not everyone who is trans looks obviously trans, some people pass very well. At the very least there is ambiguity, some non-trans men can look very feminine and some non-trans women can look very masculine - as least according to current conventions. So unless someone tells you that they are trans you don't know for sure. Do you use the pronouns you think they most physically look like, according to some kind of subjective scale of masculinity or femininity, or do you take cues from how they present, or seem to identify, or how others idenitify them - things that are often much more clear cut. To only accept (from a social if not philosophical view) passable trans people as their aquired gender - because you have no choice, you won't know they are trans - sets up what's basically a hierarchy based on conventional physical attractiveness. Pretty transwoman are treated as woman and butch trans men as men.

Secondly people who are trans, and who pass fairly well, do not necessarily want to be 'outed' in every single interaction, not least because trans people are often targets for abuse. To misgender someone, in a social setting, when no-one else might know they are trans, is to put that person at risk. And since misgendering transpeople sometimes has a political motive, or worse might be a prelude to abuse, then this could leaves some transpeople unable to ever relax into a social environment because experience might tell them that they are about to be interrogated over their gender, or mocked, or beaten up.

It's a shitty way to treat someone and if the only excuse for it is to preserve some mystical pure womaness of pronouns then that's a shitty excuse.
 
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I'll do my best not to turn this into an essay! I'm repeating some stuff I've said before, but I'll try to tie it together.

Firstly, regarding the way that we may be primed from birth to search for something like gender, I think this is very likely to be true if and only if gender is something that can be shown to be universal to human societies across time and place. If it can't be shown to be universal, this priming is very unlikely to be true. If it can, I would say that it's very unlikely not to be true, because there would be a clear selection advantage for it to be there, and such priming is present where there is a selection advantage in other areas. Evolution can and does find this kind of thing. To be explicit, that would not be a priming of girls to search for 'girl' and boys to search for 'boy'. That's not the kind of solution evolution finds - just as a baby gosling doesn't know the thing it's imprinting on is its mother, a baby human doesn't know its biological sex. It would simply be a priming to search out that kind of category as something that you belong to. It would help to make sense of the mass of information being thrown at you.

I do think the answer to this question matters, because it touches on the question 'what is gender for?' We have rarely mentioned sexual attraction on these trans threads, but most people employ or respond to various aspects of gender performance in their mating rituals. Often we're contradictory, in that one part of us may dislike the performance while another enjoys the effect that it produces. The idea that we should 'abolish gender', where gender is a universal of human society, ignores its role in socialising males and females in the way they relate to and treat each other, not all of which is necessarily bad. To make a comparison to other animals, there is evidence from the traumatised populations of elephants left behind after human culls that young adult male elephants, upon leaving their family group, need the presence of older males to teach them both how to relate to other males without conflict and how to treat females and their families with respect (see the work of GA Bradshaw). This looks very much like gender performance to me.

Having this culturally learned role gives human societies a huge amount of flexibility, and even if we are primed to search for such a thing, that doesn't say anything about what its content might be, so I'm absolutely not defending the idea that we should be forcing limiting stereotypes on anybody. There is a hell of a lot wrong with the gender norms we currently have, which reflect the past oppression of women, among many other things. But we seem to be getting stuck here, comparing the desire for the 'wrong' gender to wanting to be a tree, etc.

I would suggest that in many people's minds (in mine, definitely), biological sex and gender are so entwined with one another that we do sometimes confuse or conflate the two. In language, we just have 'woman' and 'man' to represent both, assuming that they will never be in conflict. But the culturally learned aspect of that identity, gender, clearly doesn't always correspond with the biologically determined aspect of it, sex, in a neat way. And there is clearly a very wide range of experience here - from those for whom gender is unimportant to the extent that they would like to see it erased to those for whom gender trumps sex and is the most important part in explaining to themselves and to others who they are and how they feel.

I have a lot of sympathy with those who would like to see gender abolished, but I think it's not only unrealistic but also not necessarily desirable: we need ways for males to be taught how to treat females, for instance, just as much as elephants do; and gender's role in sexual attraction can't just be wished away. Acknowledging that gender is universal to human societies (if it is) does not mean you should not try to change how it is expressed. There is a pressing need to change how it is expressed. But alongside that, surely there is also a need to acknowledge the wide variety of experience here, which includes the people (both trans and cis) for whom gender expression is an important part of the way they relate to the world. Those who would wish to abolish gender are not *right* where others are *wrong*, but some gender-critical people act and write as if they were, with mean and hurtful consequences.

That's a very long post! I can't really do it justice but thanks for taking the time to explain.

But I would like to say, as I responded to a post with the tree in it, it seemed to me an arbitrary example of someone stating that they believed something that didn't conform with the consensus view, rather than an attempt at equivalence. It probably did trivialise the issue and I'm sorry if that was so.

I don't come either from a position of gender abolition or a belief in an innate gender identity. I think the idea of being primed is an interesting one.
 
Seems to me that a lot of this stuff sounds fine in theory but becomes fraught with difficulties when it might be played out in real people's interactions. Misgendering is a good example. Not everyone who is trans looks obviously trans, some people pass very well. At the very least there is ambiguity, some non-trans men can look very feminine and some non-trans women can look very masculine - as least according to current conventions. So unless someone tells you that they are trans you don't know for sure. Do you use the pronouns you think they most physically look like, according to some kind of subjective scale of masculinity or femininity, or do you take cues from how they present, or seem to identify, or how others idenitify them - things that are often much more clear cut. To only accept (from a social if not philosophical view) passable trans people as their aquired gender - because you have no choice, you won't know they are trans - sets up what's basically a hierarchy based on conventional physical attractiveness. Pretty transwoman are treated as woman and butch trans men as men.

Secondly people who are trans, and who pass fairly well, do not necessarily want to be 'outed' in every single interaction, not least because trans people are often targets for abuse. To misgender someone, in a social setting, when no-one else might know they are trans, is to put that person at risk. And since misgendering transpeople sometimes has a political motive, or worse might be a prelude to abuse, then this could leaves some transpeople unable to ever relax into a social environment because experience might tell them that they are about to be interrogated over their gender, or mocked, or beaten up.

It's a shitty way to treat someone and if the only excuse for it is to preserve some mystical pure womaness of pronouns then that's a shitty excuse.

With regard to your second point, I don't think anyone here other than MY is in favour of misgendering.

I don't think you're able to empathise with women's concerns if you think they're motivated by nothing more significant than lingistic purity.
 
The very term misgendering as it's being used here and elsewhere is based on the ideological position that one can determine one's own gender. This is, to say the least, a contested position.

Personally, I would address anyone I met by whatever name and with whatever pronoun they wanted, for the obvious reasons discussed on this thread.

But to automatically condemn anyone who doesn't as 'misgendering' is as wrong as claiming that someone who is biologically male but has the gender identity of a woman as misgendering themselves, IMO.
 
I just re-read my post. I was quite specifically taking issue with the idea that telling people what they want to hear is therapeutic. This seems to be a common idea atm.

I honestly don't know what is most helpful for young people with gender dysphoria. The aim of psychoanalytic psychotherapy in the UK (as practised at the Tavi) is to help a young person feel happier in their own skin, regardless of presenting symptoms, so they feel less need to defend themselves in ways that get in the way of their relationships. It's not a symptom focused treatment. But it's not 'supportive' psychotherapy either. Do you know if the Tavi GIDS does more supportive psychotherapy, have they modified their approach?

btw I don't have an agenda. You reply to my posts as though you think I have an agenda.

So, I checked it out myself. I hadn't understood that the Tavistock GIDS is separate from CAMHS, so from what I can gather they offer therapeutic support as part of their MDT approach but not Child and Adolescent Psychotherapy (psychoanalytic) as practiced by Tavistock CAMHS, unless that was wanted/needed/indicated alongside GIDS.

For anyone apart from me who may be interested.
 
Literally however they want, with no qualifications, no consideration of your own feelings or needs, or whether what they want reflects any socially agreed way of behaving or might have adverse effects on you, them or anyone else?

I find that difficult to believe, TBH, and even if it's true I don't think it's a good or healthy way to behave towards others

Yes, literally however they want, assuming that differs radically from what I would do anyway. And assuming nobody's going to get hurt or humiliated. To be fair how we are with each other can be largely instinctive but IMO one of the benefits of being human is that we can think things through and not always have to rely on instinct, if instinct leads to poor outcomes we can reconsider and change. I'm not sure what's unhealthy about it. I think I'd rather spend my time listening to someone than second-guessing them.

There are loads of reasons I think people I meet are wrong, but I pick my battles, and as I get older I think I want fewer of those, not more. Also as I mentioned, I work with people who have varying MH needs and learning disabilities, as well as other conditions that affect how they perceive themselves and the world around them, and how they behave, in ways a lot of people might find hard to relate to. This colours my views.
 
But to automatically condemn anyone who doesn't as 'misgendering' is as wrong as claiming that someone who is biologically male but has the gender identity of a woman as misgendering themselves, IMO.

How do we conduct these conversations though?
How does, for example, a college for women, having been founded to, say, help get more women into science, even begin debate this issue when even the basic terms and definitions of what male and female, man, woman, girl, boy mean in people's daily lives are being eroded?
What will all this mean to statistics of all sorts?
 
How do we conduct these conversations though?
How does, for example, a college for women, having been founded to, say, help get more women into science, even begin debate this issue when even the basic terms and definitions of what male and female, man, woman, girl, boy mean in people's daily lives are being eroded?
What will all this mean to statistics of all sorts?
ETA: I don't know if you're referring here to a report about a Cambridge women-only college admitting trans women, but if so:

What is the scale of this problem in reality?

Looking at the UK, where there used to be far more men going to uni than women, now more women go. For the first time this year, irrc, Cambridge has admitted more women than men, while other unis have been doing so for a while. wrt getting more women into science, the very few women-only colleges that are left at places like Cambridge aren't really the vehicle for that - in our system as it is now, that's too late, you need to have intervened in schools. One or two trans women (which is really all it will be) getting places at the one or two elite institutions left for women only here in the UK really is neither here nor there wrt wider issues to do with getting more women into things like science or engineering. Is there really a problem here at all? The circumstances in which women-only colleges such as these were founded have now changed dramatically.
 
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ETA: I don't know if you're referring here to a report about a Cambridge women-only college admitting trans women, but if so:

No, it was just a reality based created example to get an answer to the question. I briefly attended a women only college a few years ago. That's where I met my friend.

segregation is so dead

Segregation was what some of us actually needed.
 
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