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Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

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To validate someone's self-image is not therapeutic when they think they're a monster, or fat when they're thin.

Yes, but the consensus of medical opinion regarding trans seems to be that there is therapeutic value in effective social transition for trans people. Social transition requires society to play it's part. To me, the discussion society should be having is not whether, philosophically speaking, trans women are women, but whether the therapeutic benefits of everyone saying they are outweigh the costs of such an approach (e.g. the question of the extent that should be mandated versus free speech, and the potential for harm to women's interests).
 
Yes, but the consensus of medical opinion regarding trans seems to be that there is therapeutic value in effective social transition for trans people. Social transition requires society to play it's part. To me, the discussion society should be having is not whether, philosophically speaking, trans women are women, but whether the therapeutic benefits of everyone saying they are outweigh the costs of such an approach (e.g. the question of the extent that should be mandated versus free speech, and the potential for harm to women's interests).

I'm not sure if it is there is a consenus. I'm not trying to be provocative or undermining of people's needs, but I don't know if this is true.
 
I'm not sure if it is there is a consenus. I'm not trying to be provocative or undermining of people's needs, but I don't know if this is true.

I had understood that to be the case for the majority of long-term adult cases at least (accepting there's more controversy regarding children). But, in fairness, I can't point to any particular sources for that beyond the fact that it's transition is offered I the NHS, and I'd be surprised if that would happen without some evidence of benefit.
 
Their view isn't just that there is a difference between cis and trans women (if it was, that could hardly be controversial). It's that trans women are men. To ask them to make that point without saying trans women are men (and to decline to engage with the substance of their argument in the meantime) is effectively to ask them not to make the point. It's a slightly longer route to '#nodebate'. Which I don't think is very useful to anyone.



I think their answers offer the opportunity for rebuttal, to anyone who wants to engage with the content rather than the way they're expressed.

So MY gets to say whatever they want but I am policing language by criticising their arrogance?
Would anyone put this argument to someone using the work paki to me?
Very similar arguments were made when racist language was challenged back in the 1970s and 80s when I was growing up.
There were very similar language arguments when people like me refused to be call half caste and demanded to be called mixed race...people used "can't tell people how to think" and "can't police" type arguments then too.
My response then and in this debate is that I ain't policing language..I am challenging an idea.
And to be honest I find it bizarre that you do not accuse MY of policing others ideas and language yet chose to falsly do so with me.
If you have challenged them then accept my apologies.

I will leave you to have a response but will not continue as I think we will not agree with each other, and I do not want to derail the thread.
Enjoy your weekend
 
I had understood that to be the case for the majority of long-term adult cases at least (accepting there's more controversy regarding children). But, in fairness, I can't point to any particular sources for that beyond the fact that it's transition is offered I the NHS, and I'd be surprised if that would happen without some evidence of benefit.

I'm sure it has some benefit for some people, but it's very hard in mental health to say any one thing has benefit for everyone.

I'm not familiar with specialist adult services.
 
Yes, it's known as 'cultural appropriation'. It also misses the point in that many 'third gender' categories in indigenous cultures are exist as a way to accommodate homosexual males into society. What we know as 'transgender' is predominantly the domain of heterosexual males.
I don't think this is true at all. It's just you confidently spraying "alternative facts". There are transgender people all over the earth, and it's possible that there have been since Homo sapiens first appeared some 300,000 years ago.

And it's not cultural appropriation, quite the reverse in fact, to look to other societies to see the options open to transgender individuals in differing cultures.
 
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So MY gets to say whatever they want but I am policing language by criticising their arrogance?
Would anyone put this argument to someone using the work paki to me?
Very similar arguments were made when racist language was challenged back in the 1970s and 80s when I was growing up.
There were very similar language arguments when people like me refused to be call half caste and demanded to be called mixed race...people used "can't tell people how to think" and "can't police" type arguments then too.
My response then and in this debate is that I ain't policing language..I am challenging an idea.
And to be honest I find it bizarre that you do not accuse MY of policing others ideas and language yet chose to falsly do so with me.
If you have challenged them then accept my apologies.

I will leave you to have a response but will not continue as I think we will not agree with each other, and I do not want to derail the thread.
Enjoy your weekend

I've said a number of times I disagree with MY. Specifically, I don't like her misgendering any more than you do. I just think there's little value in asking her not to, compared to challenging what she says.

I don't think the two situations are analogous. The word 'paki' is intrinsically offensive in a way that 'he' isn't. There's no philosophical point behind the use of the word 'paki on the way that there is behind deciding to whom the label woman should apply.

Have a good weekend yourself.
 
I haven't replied because I don't really have anything to say in response but didn't want to give the impression I was ignoring you. I don't find the idea controversial as such, I just don't know what it means outside of the ways we currently have of looking at these things i.e biological sex, development of selves in gendered societies.
I'll do my best not to turn this into an essay! I'm repeating some stuff I've said before, but I'll try to tie it together.

Firstly, regarding the way that we may be primed from birth to search for something like gender, I think this is very likely to be true if and only if gender is something that can be shown to be universal to human societies across time and place. If it can't be shown to be universal, this priming is very unlikely to be true. If it can, I would say that it's very unlikely not to be true, because there would be a clear selection advantage for it to be there, and such priming is present where there is a selection advantage in other areas. Evolution can and does find this kind of thing. To be explicit, that would not be a priming of girls to search for 'girl' and boys to search for 'boy'. That's not the kind of solution evolution finds - just as a baby gosling doesn't know the thing it's imprinting on is its mother, a baby human doesn't know its biological sex. It would simply be a priming to search out that kind of category as something that you belong to. It would help to make sense of the mass of information being thrown at you.

I do think the answer to this question matters, because it touches on the question 'what is gender for?' We have rarely mentioned sexual attraction on these trans threads, but most people employ or respond to various aspects of gender performance in their mating rituals. Often we're contradictory, in that one part of us may dislike the performance while another enjoys the effect that it produces. The idea that we should 'abolish gender', where gender is a universal of human society, ignores its role in socialising males and females in the way they relate to and treat each other, not all of which is necessarily bad. To make a comparison to other animals, there is evidence from the traumatised populations of elephants left behind after human culls that young adult male elephants, upon leaving their family group, need the presence of older males to teach them both how to relate to other males without conflict and how to treat females and their families with respect (see the work of GA Bradshaw). This looks very much like gender performance to me.

Having this culturally learned role gives human societies a huge amount of flexibility, and even if we are primed to search for such a thing, that doesn't say anything about what its content might be, so I'm absolutely not defending the idea that we should be forcing limiting stereotypes on anybody. There is a hell of a lot wrong with the gender norms we currently have, which reflect the past oppression of women, among many other things. But we seem to be getting stuck here, comparing the desire for the 'wrong' gender to wanting to be a tree, etc.

I would suggest that in many people's minds (in mine, definitely), biological sex and gender are so entwined with one another that we do sometimes confuse or conflate the two. In language, we just have 'woman' and 'man' to represent both, assuming that they will never be in conflict. But the culturally learned aspect of that identity, gender, clearly doesn't always correspond with the biologically determined aspect of it, sex, in a neat way. And there is clearly a very wide range of experience here - from those for whom gender is unimportant to the extent that they would like to see it erased to those for whom gender trumps sex and is the most important part in explaining to themselves and to others who they are and how they feel.

I have a lot of sympathy with those who would like to see gender abolished, but I think it's not only unrealistic but also not necessarily desirable: we need ways for males to be taught how to treat females, for instance, just as much as elephants do; and gender's role in sexual attraction can't just be wished away. Acknowledging that gender is universal to human societies (if it is) does not mean you should not try to change how it is expressed. There is a pressing need to change how it is expressed. But alongside that, surely there is also a need to acknowledge the wide variety of experience here, which includes the people (both trans and cis) for whom gender expression is an important part of the way they relate to the world. Those who would wish to abolish gender are not *right* where others are *wrong*, but some gender-critical people act and write as if they were, with mean and hurtful consequences.
 
I'm sure it has some benefit for some people, but it's very hard in mental health to say any one thing has benefit for everyone.

I'm not familiar with specialist adult services.

Yes, and assessing that benefit is part of the weighing up of the pros and cons that's necessary.
 
To me, such an argument based on compassion is more compelling than the philosophical arguments for why trans women are women.

Edited cos it was a fuck up

Arguments that leave the realm of mere philosophy and enter the lived experiences of everyone including those of millions of womb carrying individuals on change of law.
 
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In language, we just have 'woman' and 'man' to represent both, assuming that they will never be in conflict.

Traditionally, this as resolved by using man/woman for gender and male/female for sex. But there's an ideological drive to destroy that distinction, embodied in the increased use of the 'trans women are female' mantra.
 
I don't think this is true at all. It's just you confidently spraying "alternative facts". There are transgender people all over the earth, and it's possible that there have been since Homo sapiens first appeared some 300,000 years ago.

And it's not cultural appropriation, quite the reverse in fact, to look to other societies to see the options open to transgender individuals in differing cultures.

I think the point was that many other cultures have a third gender which isn't the same as our conception of transgenderism. For instance Indian males who don't feel like men are Hijra, not women.
 
I think the point was that many other cultures have a third gender which isn't the same as our conception of transgenderism. For instance Indian males who don't feel like men are Hijra, not women.
Yes, and it's interesting that Indian law recognises Hirja as a third gender. On the face of it, that seems a better solution than shoe-horning transgender people into the woman/man categories.

eta: It seems that for Hirja transgender people it's usual to take a feminine name, and use the feminine pronouns. Sister mother and daughter are used to describe their relationships.
 
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Yes, and it's interesting that Indian law recognises Hirja as a third gender. On the face of it, that seems a better solution than shoe-horning transgender people into the woman/man categories.

eta: It seems that for Hirja transgender people it's usual to take a feminine name, and use the feminine pronouns. Sister mother and daughter are used to describe their relationships.

Better for whom?! You won't find many trans people in this country embracing the idea they're third gender!
 
All depends what gender means really. My dictionary is remarkably unhelpful.

Yes, and 'gender identity'. There needs to be some common understanding on these points, particularly if they will underpin legislation.

Sadly, even the most vocal proponents of the idea of a 'gender identity' that exists independently of sex or how someone is seen by society (based on sex) cannot offer a cogent and non-circular definition.

Instead, people are being asked, or, worse, expected, to accept magical thinking uncritically.

I'm willing to do that (as a matter of courtesy and compassion) to a point, because my life doesn't entail instances where those issues are really critical in the way they are for many women.
 
I agree also it would be absolutely appropriate to address the person in whatever way they preferred, and to not do so would be a violation.

I haven't discussed anyone's individual psychotherapeutic needs, I don't understand why you think I have done so.
Now it's my turn to apologise. I didn't intend to suggest you were discussing anyone's individual therapeutic needs.

I was trying to say that while I appreciate that you and others may want to discuss psychotherapeutic issues as they may relate to transgender people, I personally don't wish to get involved in that aspect.
 
So, its an illness? I thought you wanted to get rid of the whole medical approach.
It's an illness when they want it to be, but when they don't, it's offensive to even suggest that it is.

The reality seems to be that some self-indentifying trans eople are experiencing gender dysphoria and some are not.

That's one of the problems of basing the whole discussion on people's subjective feelings and the demand that no one uses any terms with any rigour, in case someone might find that offensive.

Dysphoria, obviously. Fucking autocorrect :mad:
 
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Maybe you should take that up with the poster who brought up the question of trees, houses and cats, and whether they have an innate essence, which wasn't me

The only clue that you mean my post is that you mention cats, trees and houses which mine did. The rest of what you say bears absolutely no resemblance to my point, so perhaps you should go back and re-read my post and the posts I was responding to, before you try and comment on it any further.
 
I dunno when everyone stopped googling shit for themselves and became reliant on others 'clarifying' what shit means for them.
 
Sure, I'd want to treat them sympathetically, which might include treating them as a tree in certain situations, but that's quite different to agreeing that they ARE a tree.

And that is effectively what some of those pushing this 'identity trumps all' transideology demand we do

At what point does the insistence on treating people according to ''what I see'' turn into agreeing to treat people according to ''what they request''? Like if ones friend John or Jane, apropos of not a lot, decides one day they'd rather be called Alex, would one call them Alex, or the name one had always used? What would be the rationale, one way of the other?

I'm curious as to what levels we work at, with respect to doing what someone else wants rather than what I myself deem to be correct. For myself, working with people with mental health needs and learning disabilities, my default is to treat people how they wish, rather than how I wish. But I understand not everyone does the same, and that some people's limits in this regard may be different from my own.
 
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I dunno when everyone stopped googling shit for themselves and became reliant on others 'clarifying' what shit means for them.

Maybe because the people asking that want to know what the other person thinks of the subject, and not whatever results Google's algorithms think people want to see? This is a pretty shit thread but you are not fucking helping.
 
Maybe because the people asking that want to know what the other person thinks of the subject, and not whatever results Google's algorithms think people want to see? This is a pretty shit thread but you are not fucking helping.


oh sorry, I didnt realise that 99% of this thread was helpful, my mistake.
 
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