Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Red Cat]

The tragedy is that he isn't really 'showing the world' what a man he is; he's showing himself. No one knew that his nephew put on a dress until Lewis told them all - there was literally no public stigma to purge at all. But still he had to post the clip, to purge himself.

Yes, it's a fantasy in his own mind that he put out there. I agree, very like a purging.

 

[Sunset Tree]

What are class markers? This is the first time I've heard this term. But then, there's a lot of "new" terminology about these days.

You can tell when someone is posh. I wasn't using some new terminology I just meant things that mark someone as being from a certain class background. Accent, lifestyle, that sort of thing.

 

[Red Cat]

It's not just strength vs weakness but the entire range of human behaviours that get gendered in our society. A key one for a male racing driver is 'competence' vs 'incompetence' (obviously the former is male. the latter female) - particularly where this relates to cars. Women can't drive properly, FACT.

Sure. Strength and weakness was a simplification.

 

[comrade spurski]

Toeing the party line does not involve discussion.

What party line? (genuine question)

 

[krtek a houby]

You can tell when someone is posh. I wasn't using some new terminology I just meant things that mark someone as being from a certain class background. Accent, lifestyle, that sort of thing.

Ah, ok.

 

[Sunset Tree]

Ah, ok.

It has genuinely been my experience that the more vocal proponents of identity politics are well-off university students, postgraduates, academics etc. I always think it's a style of politics which could only thrive among the economically privileged. It requires treating class as an identity, equal to gender/race/sexuality/ability, rather than a set of structured material relations. Convenient if you've had a sheltered life but want to be in the oppressed group.

Sorry for the tangent this would be better on the identity politics thread.

 

[co-op]

What party line? (genuine question)

I think Nigel is a member of some Irish Trotskyist party. I could be wrong but you could certainly play Debating With Trots Bingo with his posts.

 

[krtek a houby]

It has genuinely been my experience that the more vocal proponents of identity politics are well-off university students, postgraduates, academics etc. I always think it's a style of politics which could only thrive among the economically privileged. It requires treating class as an identity, equal to gender/race/sexuality/ability, rather than a set of structured material relations. Convenient if you've had a sheltered life but want to be in the oppressed group.

Sorry for the tangent this would be better on the identity politics thread.

Probably. But I remain stedfast in my own views as to class and identity politics, without the stereotypical sheltered life to go with it.

Anyways, that's not important. This thread has me perplexed because the topic is something nobody I know would really talk about. Which is why I watch it but tbh, I'm still perplexed. There are a hell of a lot of different viewpoints and I cannot say which is "right".

As regards transgender, I take people as I find. I've had several decades to realise that people cannot be classified, labelled, boxed into any one group. We're much more diverse and individual than that. But we can still unite on a lot of issues.

But I have found that the ordinary person doesn't get transgenderism and the discussion here would make the head spin. That's just my take on it. Discussion is good but this in depth thread is not something I have found to exist outside of it. IYSWIM...

 

[comrade spurski]

I think Nigel is a member of some Irish Trotskyist party. I could be wrong but you could certainly play Debating With Trots Bingo with his posts.

Cheers.

 

[Sunset Tree]

But I have found that the ordinary person doesn't get transgenderism and the discussion here would make the head spin. That's just my take on it. Discussion is good but this in depth thread is not something I have found to exist outside of it. IYSWIM...

Yeah, I agree with that. Most people don't really get trans issues, including myself. It seems like a lot of the basic questions ordinary people might ask are considered transphobic or the answers should be self-evident.

 

[krtek a houby]

Yeah, I agree with that. Most people don't really get trans issues, including myself. It seems like a lot of the basic questions ordinary people might ask are considered transphobic or the answers should be self-evident.

For sure. The answers are not self-evident (at least, not to me) and I'm (if I have to lable myself) LGBT. But I only started "identifying" as such when I received abuse from people. Got sick of hiding who I am. Not that I wear a badge, or anything.

Trans people get a lot of stick, from what I;ve seen and heard. And from within the community itself.

 

[Sea Star]

Disabled people for example, have had this kind of discussion quite openly in radical circles for a long time - but no-one ever accuses them of being part of rape culture if they suggest societal prejudice or unease with disabled people's bodies may be one reason they find it difficult to find sexual partners.

to be fair - it happens often enough to autistic men. At least in my experience anyway.

 

[Sea Star]

Yeah, I agree with that. Most people don't really get trans issues, including myself. It seems like a lot of the basic questions ordinary people might ask are considered transphobic or the answers should be self-evident.

and yet I (and I'm guessing most trans people who have engaged with cis people on trans issues for long enough) usually can see a stark difference in people who are genuine and people who are trolling. And I offered to talk to anyone who has questions via a private message where I won't get piled on by the usual subjects and I can attempt a genuine answer to any question. Not had a single person take me up on this so that leaves me wondering how genuine are the questions being asked on this and other threads.

 

[Sunset Tree]

I don't use the PM function. I actually have it switched off. What I like about forums is the format of public threads with multiple responses.

It's up to you whether to respond but surely the answers would be the same whether someone is genuine or trolling?

 

[krtek a houby]

and yet I (and I'm guessing most trans people who have engaged with cis people on trans issues for long enough) usually can see a stark difference in people who are genuine and people who are trolling. And I offered to talk to anyone who has questions via a private message where I won't get piled on by the usual subjects and I can attempt a genuine answer to any question. Not had a single person take me up on this so that leaves me wondering how genuine are the questions being asked on this and other threads.

Well, on a personal level, you and I have interacted via pm and I think you know I support you and always value your input. My questions here are genuine in the sense that despite my own experiences over the last 30 years or so, I still find myself perplexed. Simply because the whole sexuality/gender/identity thing is not black and white.

 

[Sea Star]

I don't use the PM function. I actually have it switched off. What I like about forums is the format of public threads with multiple responses.

It's up to you whether to respond but surely the answers would be the same whether someone is genuine or trolling?

My intitial answer would be the same. Their responses would not be.

 

[campanula]

Not had a single person take me up on this so that leaves me wondering how genuine are the questions being asked on this and other threads.

Because no-one specifically wants your output in a PM, no-one is genuine, interested or has anything to add.? Any idea how bizarrely self-obsessed this sounds...unless you truly believe you are the self-appointed spokesperson for all transpeople, at all times?

Whilst 'lived experience' has its place in any analysis, there are also limiting factors where it becomes impossible to separate the personal from the general...and the easy claims of phobia and prejudice. The things is, when we offer up our personal experience as being somehow representative of ALL experiences, we effectively deny the collective, the class analysis in favour of restrictive and easily refuted personal anecdote...which has limited applications for understanding political or social movement.
It's something we do...because we are sentient individuals looking to engage with others...but we also need to keep a cool distance.

 

[Sea Star]

if i refuse to answer points I'm a cunt, and if I offer to answer points I'm a cunt.


Just fuck off


and yeah why would you want a trans person giving their point of view ever?

Funny how so many people demanded i answer their points in public but won't ask me in private.

Obviously it's Miranda Yardley who should be listened to at all times.

 

[Red Cat]

It's a public forum.

 

[krtek a houby]

if i refuse to answer points I'm a cunt, and if I offer to answer points I'm a cunt.


Just fuck off


and yeah why would you want a trans person giving their point of view ever?

Funny how so many people demanded i answer their points in public but won't ask me in private.

Obviously it's Miranda Yardley who should be listened to at all times.

Could it be that a minority of people here see you as easily riled and tend to have a go? Accuse you of making it all about yourself when you reply passionately about stuff you have experienced?

Some people get a kick out of undermining others, so no matter what you say, it will always be held up to ridicule and/or intense scrutiny?

As for the poster you mentioned, I'm not convinced by her at all.

 

[Red Cat]

Could it be that a minority of people here see you as easily riled and tend to have a go? Accuse you of making it all about yourself when you reply passionately about stuff you have experienced?

Some people get a kick out of undermining others, so no matter what you say, it will always be held up to ridicule and/or intense scrutiny?

As for the poster you mentioned, I'm not convinced by her at all.

That hasn't happened here. What has happened is a bunch of people have had a discussion on a public forum.

 

[Sea Star]

Could it be that a minority of people here see you as easily riled and tend to have a go? Accuse you of making it all about yourself when you reply passionately about stuff you have experienced?

I know I am. I acknowledge that weakness but also it's not surprising considering the shit I've been through. I believe my experience is valuable - and I notice that the average gender critical person is very quick to personalise things when they accuse me of trying to invalidate their experiences just by existing. What is trans if it's not personal? I can't see how to discuss trans without personalising it. I also don;t believe that any cis person will ever be able to understand so that makes it hard to discuss if they keep demanding that they be made to understand.

I've said before that so many things on this thread are said, that are wrong, but are going unchallenged - one I've seen today is the claim that "transgenderism" - whatever that is - is on the rise. There is absolutely no evidence for this - though i see transphobes using it as a way to invalidate us almost daily. Doesn;t get challenged on Urban 75 though. But everything I say does, however non-controversial. I believe I'm being held to standards that no one else on this thread is.

 

[Red Cat]

Again, that hasn't happened here. No one has demanded anything of you at all.

 

[krtek a houby]

I know I am. I acknowledge that weakness but also it's not surprising considering the shit I've been through. I believe my experience is valuable - and I notice that the average gender critical person is very quick to personalise things when they accuse me of trying to invalidate their experiences just by existing. What is trans if it's not personal? I can't see how to discuss trans without personalising it. I also don;t believe that any cis person will ever be able to understand so that makes it hard to discuss if they keep demanding that they be made to understand.

I've said before that so many things on this thread are said, that are wrong, but are going unchallenged - one I've seen today is the claim that "transgenderism" - whatever that is - is on the rise. There is absolutely no evidence for this - though i see transphobes using it as a way to invalidate us almost daily. Doesn;t get challenged on Urban 75 though. But everything I say does, however non-controversial. I believe I'm being held to standards that no one else on this thread is.

Do you really believe that a dozen or so eejits can dictate to you? Can invalidate your experiences or expertise?

You're better than that, you know you are. Lookit, it's the same names over and over again. You're singled out because you care.

Says more about them than it does you.

 

[Athos]

if i refuse to answer points I'm a cunt, and if I offer to answer points I'm a cunt.


Just fuck off


and yeah why would you want a trans person giving their point of view ever?

Funny how so many people demanded i answer their points in public but won't ask me in private.

Obviously it's Miranda Yardley who should be listened to at all times.

Why would you prefer it be done by pm?

 

[co-op]

I've said before that so many things on this thread are said, that are wrong, but are going unchallenged - one I've seen today is the claim that "transgenderism" - whatever that is - is on the rise. There is absolutely no evidence for this - though i see transphobes using it as a way to invalidate us almost daily.

The only example of this I've seen is the claim that there has apparently recently been a steep rise in the number of young ftm transpeople. You're right it's not been evidenced much. It's seen as relevant by some I think because the numbers of ftm and mtf are so uneven but it's not something I claim any knowledge of. I haven't seen anyone else claim that 'transgenderism' is on the rise on this thread.

 

[kabbes]

Why would you prefer it be done by pm?

Control.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

if i refuse to answer points I'm a cunt, and if I offer to answer points I'm a cunt.


Just fuck off


and yeah why would you want a trans person giving their point of view ever?

Funny how so many people demanded i answer their points in public but won't ask me in private.

Obviously it's Miranda Yardley who should be listened to at all times.

This is quite a good example of why people may be unwilling to try and talk to you.

 

[kabbes]

The only example of this I've seen is the claim that there has apparently recently been a steep rise in the number of young ftm transpeople. You're right it's not been evidenced much. It's seen as relevant by some I think because the numbers of ftm and mtf are so uneven but it's not something I claim any knowledge of. I haven't seen anyone else claim that 'transgenderism' is on the rise on this thread.

I referenced it in this post of a few days ago, to be fair:

I’m not convinced that this debate would look like anything in particular in the absence of identity politics. I’m firmly of the opinion that people’s entire make-up — identity, assumptions about social ordering, where they look politically for answers, behaviours, adoption of roles, you name it — is firmly rooted in the context of the society they exist in. And these things are all interrelated. I’ve spoken at length in the past about the transition from industrialism to consumerism and what that implies for identity construction, political priorities and dominant narratives, and this is an example of social context both making and being made by the people in it.

I think what we’re experiencing at the moment across all of mainstream society is the continued emphasis of the individual over the collective, the commodification of the self into the Marketing Character and the creation of bespoke identities stitched together from pieces of what were previously parts of coherent narratives. It’s both caused by and symptomatic of broader trends — generation rent, infantilisation, disintegration of social structures, changing work patterns, social media, the “global village”, you name it.

I am careful to describe all this as a complex web of self-reinforcing (and sometimes self-antagonistic) forces both internal and external rather than simple cause and effect. It’s not just that people experience a context and therefore become a particular character. People make and remake themselves in the circumstances they’d find themselves in and, in doing so, they make and remake society, and vice versa. That is our defining evolutionary characteristic — extraordinary brain plasticity, which makes us able to adapt to whatever environment (physical or social) we find ourselves in. We aren’t just born a particular way and then cope as best we can with the environment we are in. We are literally chemically and physically made (both in terms of brain structure and epigenetically) by the environment, and we also act to reform our environment.

Looking at this specific debate, one question has been why there is such an increase in transgenderism. I think you have to look at this trend as part of its wider social context. From that point I can only speculate but, at the very least, I am not surprised in a commodified, consumerised world that there would be an increase in people whose core identity contains facets that place them outside of traditional narratives of how to be.

That’s why, returning to your question, I don’t think this debate would exist without also having it in the context of identity politics. Identity politics is part and parcel of the same social context as the thing it is being applied to.

It wasn’t core to what I was saying, though. I wasn’t intending to assert an increase in transgenderism at all, I was just using my perception of the increase (and I admit that I didn’t even think to question this perception) as an illustration of my point.

(Also, I am one of the many, many posters that Sea Star very vocally put on ignore in the past, which implies it really shouldn’t be me she is talking about, but there you go...)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

if i refuse to answer points I'm a cunt, and if I offer to answer points I'm a cunt.


Just fuck off


and yeah why would you want a trans person giving their point of view ever?

Funny how so many people demanded i answer their points in public but won't ask me in private.

Obviously it's Miranda Yardley who should be listened to at all times.

I don't want a private convo on this. For better or worse I want the ideas tested in public.

Fwiw I've never pmed someone to continue a discussion in the way you suggest. It wouldn't occur to me to do so.