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Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

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I read the wall of text and still not sure how terf premises are baked into those talking points? I feel like these are the questions most people would ask if trying to understand trans issues.

The questions assume that trans people and trans women in particular promote patriarchal ideology. They assume that TERF bigotry against trans people constitutes “challenging” that ideology. They assume that there is a universal female social conditioning which all women assigned female from birth are subjected to and which shapes all women in similar ways. They assume that trans people usually or even always describe themselves as having some sort of gendered spirit trapped in the “wrong bodies”. All of these are highly ideological claims and all of them are false.
 
I don't oppose the right of trans people to live as the gender of their choice.

Good.

“Sunset Tree said:
I just think that those questions don't sound too offensive and it might be better to engage with them than automatically call someone a terf (because what if a non-terf is asking?).

There’s no risk of mistaken identity here. Coop has been arguing this shit for years.
 
The questions assume that trans people and trans women in particular promote patriarchal ideology. They assume that TERF bigotry against trans people constitutes “challenging” that ideology. They assume that there is a universal female social conditioning which all women assigned female from birth are subjected to and which shapes all women in similar ways. They assume that trans people usually or even always describe themselves as being trapped in the “wrong bodies”. All of these are highly ideological claims and all of them are false.

Perhaps 'universal female social conditioning' is a bit strong, but it's not controversial to say that boys and girls are socialised differently, surely? Generally speaking.

I know the 'wrong bodies' idea has fallen out of favour. That is even more confusing because that was my genuine understanding of trans for ages. How is it defined now? Dysphoria? Because I've head people say that's also too medicalised.

The patriarchal thing, well I have seen examples where trans people want to transition to the most stereotypical girly/housewife type role imaginable. I can kind of see why feminists who have been trying to deconstruct those roles would challenge that. Couldn't say how representative that is, I only know one trans person irl and he (f2m) doesn't act any exaggerated gender roles he's just a normal guy.

Even if I were to accept that co-op is anti-trans, it doesn't answer whether those questions are legit under any circumstances from anyone? Or how those questions are answered.
 
Nigel Irritable, it might be worth thinking about how you express yourself. You might be making some decent points in there somewhere but your aggressive and abrasive tone really puts my back up so I miss any you do make.

Surely in political discussions, listening to other peoples views, convincing them of your arguments and then taking them with you is key? Imo you're doing the absolute opposite on this thread.
 
Nigel Irritable, it might be worth thinking about how you express yourself. You might be making some decent points in there somewhere but your aggressive and abrasive tone really puts my back up so I miss any you do make.

Surely in political discussions, listening to other peoples views, convincing them of your arguments and then taking them with you is key? Imo you're doing the absolute opposite on this thread.

I’m not gullible enough to imagine that TERFs - a hardened and obsessional group of dedicated anti-trans activists who have already proven themselves willing to become pariahs in wider left, feminist and lgbt circles - are remotely open to being convinced to give up their hobby horse. Most of my direct engagement with TERF views here comes about only because TERFs repeatedly demand a response to this or that tired talking point.

As I’ve said from the start, I’m not particularly interested in the substance of their beliefs in so far as there is a substance to them. I’m interested in them as an example of a marginal political movement the activity of which lies in opposition to their declared goals. That doesn’t require being polite and it certainly doesn’t require trying to bring people who do things like refer to transwomen as “intact males”, as if they were livestock, along with my argument.
 
I’m not gullible enough to imagine that TERFs - a hardened and obsessional group of dedicated anti-trans activists who have already proven themselves willing to become pariahs in wider left, feminist and lgbt circles - are remotely open to being convinced to give up their hobby horse. Most of my direct engagement with TERF views here comes about only because TERFs repeatedly demand a response to this or that tired talking point.

As I’ve said from the start, I’m not particularly interested in the substance of their beliefs in so far as there is a substance to them. I’m interested in them as an example of a marginal political movement the activity of which lies in opposition to their declared goals. That doesn’t require being polite and it certainly doesn’t require trying to bring people who do things like refer to transwomen as “intact males”, as if they were livestock, along with my argument.

So what about people who aren't TERFS who genuinely want to know more about the different views and debates on both sides, like me, for example? You don't care about engaging with them?

When people ask certain questions in good faith, you automatically appear to believe that they're not asking in good faith and label them as TERFs. Which stops people who are genuinely interested engaging any further.

Maybe you'd learn stuff if you did try and communicate with people differently?
 
Who have I described as a TERF who isn’t one?

And no, I don’t really have much interest in holding a friendly debate with bigots for the benefit of those who want to see “both sides” of the argument between anti-trans activists and their opponents. Left wing or feminist transphobia is an extremely marginal phenomenon with little political significance. It’s also in the latter stages of being completely excluded from leftist, feminist and lgbt movements. I don’t need to argue at length with it and certainly not on its own terms. It’s already defeated. That, incidentally, is what co-op was acknowledging when she was fantasizing about me being afraid to agree with her lest I be ostracized.

This shit only matters in so far as it’s proponents put themselves at the service of socially conservative transphobia, whether that be their meetings with David Davis or their endless attempts to get trans scare stories into the right wing press. It matters then because they allow the actually significant transphobic social force, conservatism, to muddy the waters in what is otherwise a straightforward conservative/progressive debate. So most of what I post on this thread is about that.
 
Nigel Irritable What about people who believe that trans people have the right to live legally and socially as the gender they say they are, but who don't believe that trans people actually are that gender? Are they transphobes?
 
Perhaps 'universal female social conditioning' is a bit strong, but it's not controversial to say that boys and girls are socialised differently, surely? Generally speaking.

The trans exclusionary position requires that there be some crucial element of socialization which is both fundamentally shaping in its effects and universal for people assigned female, in all circumstances, without also shaping any transwomen. That there are differences in general terms between the socialization that boys and girls are subjected to isn’t in dispute but also isn’t enough to ground an argument that transwomen should be unwelcome in women’s spaces because if the difference isn’t universal and fundamental some cis women would be on the wrong side of any exclusionary line.

TERFs end up making sweeping and crude claims about socialization because similarly sweeping and crude claims about biology proved unsatisfactory. Both because biological sex isn’t neatly binary either (there are more intersex people than out trans people) and because the incongruity between making essentialist arguments rooting behavioral differences in biological sex and gender abolitionism is too clear even for people who are used to internalizing contradictory arguments.

(As an aside it’s worth noting that a number of masculine presenting cis women have reported being harassed in bathrooms by anti-trans zealots convinced that they are transwomen. Whether the rationale for discrimination is biology or socialization, in practice exclusions will usually be enforced according to the whims and prejudices of freelance gender vigilantes).

As you know a transman and know that he isn’t a walking stereotype, you know that trans people do not inherently act as pushers of gender stereotypes. In fact, trans people, like everyone else are all over the place in terms of gendered presentation. For the most part - simply because they’ve had to think about it more - trans people tend to have more critical views about gender than the rest of the population. The main counter to that is that trans people are often subjected to various tests of their gender, ranging from casual social dismissal of their claims to extended formal legal and medical gatekeeping. Those processes tend to push trans people towards more stereotypical behaviors in order to satisfy their interlocutors. There is something shockingly cruel about people who agitate to maintain and reinforce this gate keeping simultaneously attacking people forced to respond to these tests for supposedly furthering stereotypes.
 
Nigel Irritable What about people who believe that trans people have the right to live legally and socially as the gender they say they are, but who don't believe that trans people actually are that gender? Are they transphobes?

I couldn’t give a shit about them either way, if they aren’t seeking to exclude, victimize or discriminate against trans people. You can be as wrong as you like as long as you don’t try to use those wrong views to, for instance, agitate for reinforced medical gatekeeping, try to stop trans people from using their preferred toilets or place transphobic scare stories in the right wing media.
 
Fuck sake, have you nothing better to do this evening? :D

Actually no. I’m drinking a beer, ignoring a romcom I’ve seen before and waiting for dinner time. I will however be turning my semi comatose attention to a sports forum in a few minutes time, in a shocking display of cis gender stereotyping.
 
I couldn’t give a shit about them either way, if they aren’t seeking to exclude, victimize or discriminate against trans people. You can be as wrong as you like as long as you don’t try to use those wrong views to, for instance, agitate for reinforced medical gatekeeping, try to stop trans people from using their preferred toilets or place transphobic scare stories in the right wing media.

I didn't ask you to care. I asked if you think that's transphobic?
 
While I suppose I should be flattered that my blessing or condemnation is so important to you, I’m left wondering what part of “I don’t give a shit” confused you.

Come on, it's a reasonable question. You've been happy to pontificate about what makes a TERF, until now. Why can't you answer this one?
 
Come on, it's a reasonable question. You've been happy to pontificate about what makes a TERF, until now. Why can't you answer this one?
NI's answers regarding trans exclusion have concentrated on political positions - public stances intended to influence others. I think it's reasonable and consistent for him to answer your question in this way.
 
Yes I agree. I see many people describing themselves as collections of fractured identities, rather than seeing themselves and others as whole people. How can you have a happy fulfilling relationship with yourself, never mind anyone else, if this is how you see yourself and others?

Are the people using the term "fractured identity", using it in the clinical psychological sense? If not then, to be fair, identity theory even as far back as Goffman defined what we term our individual "identity" as a collection of sometimes complementary, sometimes contradictory facets.
 
Genuinely not wanting to antagonise any side in this debate, I can honestly say that I've never met a single person who is even aware of the argument.
Wouldn't say I've never met anyone aware of these arguments. However, I've never met just about anyone irl who discusses it in the way both sides have here ('here', as in the online 'terf v trans' thing that urban is now mirroring).
 
Who have I described as a TERF who isn’t one?

And no, I don’t really have much interest in holding a friendly debate with bigots for the benefit of those who want to see “both sides” of the argument between anti-trans activists and their opponents. Left wing or feminist transphobia is an extremely marginal phenomenon with little political significance. It’s also in the latter stages of being completely excluded from leftist, feminist and lgbt movements. I don’t need to argue at length with it and certainly not on its own terms. It’s already defeated. That, incidentally, is what co-op was acknowledging when she was fantasizing about me being afraid to agree with her lest I be ostracized.

This shit only matters in so far as it’s proponents put themselves at the service of socially conservative transphobia, whether that be their meetings with David Davis or their endless attempts to get trans scare stories into the right wing press. It matters then because they allow the actually significant transphobic social force, conservatism, to muddy the waters in what is otherwise a straightforward conservative/progressive debate. So most of what I post on this thread is about that.

I'm not quite sure why you're bothering to post if it's so insignificant/marginal and if you don't want to actually have a debate about this or put your points across in a more helpful/less aggressive way. Each to their own I guess.
 
Are the people using the term "fractured identity", using it in the clinical psychological sense? If not then, to be fair, identity theory even as far back as Goffman defined what we term our individual "identity" as a collection of sometimes complementary, sometimes contradictory facets.

Does he say collection? There's a difference between saying parts of ourselves are in conflict (the basis of drama, stories, psychoanalysis etc.) and describing the self as a collection of anything. The word suggests to me a deliberate gathering.
 
In reply to no one in particular but, I wonder how much of this debate - the original debate about the perameters of being female (or male), who polices it, what follows from it - would simply disappear if society was radically reordered?* The reason I ask that naïve question is not so much a banal interjection, more to get into an equally obvious area: how should radicals approach difficult issues, in ways that build solidarity that connect struggles and seek to avoid such shitstorms as this? For me it's about class and prefigurative politics, along with a bit of common decency. Another and perhaps better way of putting this would be to ask 'what would this debate look like in the absence of identity politics'?

* The answer to that is of course that complex issues of identity - personal and political - never actually disappear, but have the potential to become something less fucked up and zero sum - something that reconfigures human diversity and complexity into something actually positive.
 
In reply to no one in particular but, I wonder how much of this debate - the original debate about the perameters of being female (or male), who polices it, what follows from it - would simply disappear if society was radically reordered?* The reason I ask that naïve question is not so much a banal interjection, more to get into an equally obvious area: how should radicals approach difficult issues, in ways that build solidarity that connect struggles and seek to avoid such shitstorms as this? For me it's about class and prefigurative politics, along with a bit of common decency. Another and perhaps better way of putting this would be to ask 'what would this debate look like in the absence of identity politics'?

* The answer to that is of course that complex issues of identity - personal and political - never actually disappear, but have the potential to become something less fucked up and zero sum - something that reconfigures human diversity and complexity into something actually positive.
I’m not convinced that this debate would look like anything in particular in the absence of identity politics. I’m firmly of the opinion that people’s entire make-up — identity, assumptions about social ordering, where they look politically for answers, behaviours, adoption of roles, you name it — is firmly rooted in the context of the society they exist in. And these things are all interrelated. I’ve spoken at length in the past about the transition from industrialism to consumerism and what that implies for identity construction, political priorities and dominant narratives, and this is an example of social context both making and being made by the people in it.

I think what we’re experiencing at the moment across all of mainstream society is the continued emphasis of the individual over the collective, the commodification of the self into the Marketing Character and the creation of bespoke identities stitched together from pieces of what were previously parts of coherent narratives. It’s both caused by and symptomatic of broader trends — generation rent, infantilisation, disintegration of social structures, changing work patterns, social media, the “global village”, you name it.

I am careful to describe all this as a complex web of self-reinforcing (and sometimes self-antagonistic) forces both internal and external rather than simple cause and effect. It’s not just that people experience a context and therefore become a particular character. People make and remake themselves in the circumstances they’d find themselves in and, in doing so, they make and remake society, and vice versa. That is our defining evolutionary characteristic — extraordinary brain plasticity, which makes us able to adapt to whatever environment (physical or social) we find ourselves in. We aren’t just born a particular way and then cope as best we can with the environment we are in. We are literally chemically and physically made (both in terms of brain structure and epigenetically) by the environment, and we also act to reform our environment.

Looking at this specific debate, one question has been why there is such an increase in transgenderism. I think you have to look at this trend as part of its wider social context. From that point I can only speculate but, at the very least, I am not surprised in a commodified, consumerised world that there would be an increase in people whose core identity contains facets that place them outside of traditional narratives of how to be.

That’s why, returning to your question, I don’t think this debate would exist without also having it in the context of identity politics. Identity politics is part and parcel of the same social context as the thing it is being applied to.
 
Nigel Irritable, it might be worth thinking about how you express yourself. You might be making some decent points in there somewhere but your aggressive and abrasive tone really puts my back up so I miss any you do make.

Surely in political discussions, listening to other peoples views, convincing them of your arguments and then taking them with you is key? Imo you're doing the absolute opposite on this thread.
Toeing the party line does not involve discussion.
 
In reply to no one in particular but, I wonder how much of this debate - the original debate about the perameters of being female (or male), who polices it, what follows from it - would simply disappear if society was radically reordered?* The reason I ask that naïve question is not so much a banal interjection, more to get into an equally obvious area: how should radicals approach difficult issues, in ways that build solidarity that connect struggles and seek to avoid such shitstorms as this? For me it's about class and prefigurative politics, along with a bit of common decency. Another and perhaps better way of putting this would be to ask 'what would this debate look like in the absence of identity politics'?

* The answer to that is of course that complex issues of identity - personal and political - never actually disappear, but have the potential to become something less fucked up and zero sum - something that reconfigures human diversity and complexity into something actually positive.
Outside of perhaps a few hundred thousand people for whom identity politics is the main thing in life, I'm not sure that anybody really thinks about their 'identity' or could even describe what it's supposed to be. All I can come up with for myself is 'white male underachieving wanker who doesn't particularly care about it. '
 
Outside of perhaps a few hundred thousand people for whom identity politics is the main thing in life, I'm not sure that anybody really thinks about their 'identity' or could even describe what it's supposed to be. All I can come up with for myself is 'white male underachieving wanker who doesn't particularly care about it. '
I think this is bollocks. If you're part of a group that has historically faced discrimination you are uncomfortably aware of that status and what that means for your everyday life. That doesn't mean 'identity politics' is your main thing in life.
 
I think this is bollocks. If you're part of a group that has historically faced discrimination you are uncomfortably aware of that status and what that means for your everyday life. That doesn't mean 'identity politics' is your main thing in life.
Maybe so, but the fact that most people haven't historically faced discrimination only reinforces what I've said. A good proportion of those who bang the identity politics drum the loudest have never faced any kind of discrimination.
 
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