Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[co-op]

What do you think that would look like ?(genuine question).

That's for transpeople to decide and would almost certainly involve more than one position I'd guess.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

And "supporting trans rights" means accepting without qualification that 'transwomen are women' regardless of biology, regardless of socialisation? Just in some mysterious essence of womanhood that they have always been part of (or has always been part of them) that cannot be defined and is beyond debate.

And women born as women have no right to question this or any of the logical consequences - eg that lesbians who don't want sex with a transwomen with a penis are transphobic?

And anyone who does so is a (disregardable) terf? In your terms on this thread, middle-aged, fearful and timorous. Silly old women.

What a bizarre series of questions.

Yes, as you know, arguing that trans people should not be able to live their lives as people of the gender of their choice, both legally and socially, is transphobic. And it remains transphobic even when people who strongly hold anti-trans views mischievously and dishonestly present their strongly held views as “just asking questions”.

As you also know, nobody is suggesting that anyone has to have sex with anyone they don’t want to have sex with. Sex with a transwoman is no more mandatory for lesbians than it is for straight men. Treating transwomen as women does not mean that you have to desire sex with them any more than treating any other woman as a woman means that you are obliged to have sex with her. The TERF fixation on this issue, and in particular their fixation on the idea that lesbians, rather than straight women, straight men or gay men, will somehow be obliged to have sex that they don’t want with trans people, reveals more about the paranoia and irrationalism of the TERF milieu than it does about trans people. Trans people are not a gigantic male conspiracy against lesbianism and those who believe otherwise are cranks.

And again as you know, women in every survey and study in both the US and the UK are much more accepting of trans rights than men are. I realize that TERFs at some level believe that their bizarre political fringe movement reflects the true interests of women as a whole, but women as a whole have never signed up for that. If we were really going to do something as stupid as assigning adjectives like “silly”, “fearful” or “timorous” to whole genders on the basis of their transphobia, it would have to be to men, who are after all more likely to have an objection to sharing toilet facilities with trans people. The TERF view ultimately implies that men are on average currently closer to a correct understanding of trans issues than women are and that social conservatives are better on the subject than most people on the left.

 

[co-op]

I don't think you've bothered read a thing on this thread, you just turn up, make your Great Announcement featuring all the straw men you wish someone had said and then depart for a few pages, and then come back and do it all again.

You haven't taken up a single question and tried to answer it, I think you're the complete political hack. At least smokedout and others have tried grappling with the difficulties of the subject.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I don't think you've bothered read a thing on this thread, you just turn up, make your Great Announcement featuring all the straw men you wish someone had said and then depart for a few pages, and then come back and do it all again.

You haven't taken up a single question and tried to answer it, I think you're the complete political hack. At least smokedout and others have tried grappling with the difficulties of the subject.

I did engage with and answer your questions. You just don't like the answers because they don't cede any ground to your anti-trans assumptions.

You should get used to not liking other people's responses to your arguments thinly disguised as questions. The usual left wing responses to TERFery tend these days to be a great deal less polite than I've been on this thread. Most younger leftists think it's entirely obvious that TERFs are no better than racists.

 

[andysays]

Your definition, provided by you. Now we can debate the word 'fixation' - I see a sliding scale here, as do others; you clearly see something different.

I'd go further and question why a genital body part causing arousal ought to be particularly privileged in this way. I don't think we develop our sexual desire in that way, that there is some kind of default 'natural' setting that gets us excited specifically by genitalia, with all other erotic stimuli somehow part of a separate system. In other words, someone who is 'fixated' on penises or vaginas is not displaying any essentially different kind of behaviour from someone who is fixated on other things.

Do you acknowledge that you were mistaken earlier and didn't realise that we were following the definition given by the paper under discussion at the time?

Dishonest subjective Humpty Dumpty bullshit from start to finish from you, as so often.

 

[TruXta]

Dishonest subjective Humpty Dumpty bullshit from start to finish from you, as so often.

No Wikipedia definitions handy then?

 

[Red Cat]

This whole part of the discussion was kicked off by this paper's definition. The definition used in the opening posts by bimble and by me, including the one that andysays slagged off, followed this paper's broad definition because that is what we were discussing. I said as much pages ago.

I happen to agree that the broad approach with a sliding scale is a more sensible description of something as nuanced and complex as sexual arousal than a massively narrow definition in which the absence of the fetish object must prevent climax. But either way, it's really important to get a handle on what Blanchard et al mean by the term and how they classify fetish in their scale because otherwise you're not going to understand their work.

So are you arguing that despite his use of medical psychiatric terminology such as transvestic fetishism, Blanchard actually meant by fetishism something broader and more colloquial?

 

[andysays]

No Wikipedia definitions handy then?

Do you actually have either an alternate definition to suggest, or a coherent non-subjective argument to make about what's incorrect about that definition?

If not, I'm not really interested in wasting my time on you.

 

[TruXta]

Do you actually have either an alternate definition to suggest, or a coherent non-subjective argument to make about what's incorrect about that definition?

If not, I'm not really interested in wasting my time on you.

Non subjective? Are you kidding me? As if the one you gave isn't subjective. Incredible.

 

[smokedout]

There are feminists who try to do this (none on this thread I think) but it's also possible to think that the demand that "transwomen are women" without any qualification or discussion of what that means is not transphobic, and not because you believe that transwomen (all/many) are predatory men in drag. The 'lesbians who don't want to have sex with a transwoman with a penis are transphobic' line is obviously daft to any sensible person but it kind of follows logically from the idea that you cannot question the "no, ifs, no buts, transwomen are women" line. If the latter is true then why is the former false? You seem to me to be dealing with that by retreating into individualism - 'individual lesbians just aren't into penises and that's cool'.

I'm not sure that's a retreat as such, more that on an individual basis it is impossible to tell whether a preference is purely authentic or motivated by conscious or unconscious transphobia. The individual themselves might not even know. It also strikes me as unnecessarily provocative. But on a societal basis then I think it can more easily be examined. As an example, if someone claims to be repulsed by the thought of gay or lesbian sex then that's up to them and the reasons why are their's to know. But we might question why so many people claim to be repulsed by the thought of lesbian or gay sex, and whether societal homophobia is a factor in this.

The mantra 'transwomen are women' does make banning the Vagina Monologues as transphobic logical, it also means women objecting to shared showers at an all-women camp in the US that can be used by transwomen with penises who are sharing with teenagers are transphobic (a real incident). Maybe that's right but I think women without penises are entitled to discuss it and reach a conclusion for themselves without being told to shut the fuck up for transphobia.

As far as I can tell the only place to have banned the Vagina Monologues is Uganda for promoting lesbianism. An all women's theatre group in the states decided to cancel a production of it because the women involved felt it wasn't inclusive enough, because it didn't include transwomen but also because they felt there were problems with race, class and other identities. Lots of transwomen have been involved with the Vagina Monologues however.

I'm not trying to nitpick by the way, but don't you see how this stuff is just relentless. The slightest thing transpeople do, or is done on their behalf - a few stupid tweets, a campus theatre groups decision - is immediately turned into overblown hyperbole and used to attack all transpeople. And these myths and assumptions do not come from nowhere, there are political factions, both within radical feminism and the conservative right who are deliberately pursuing this strategy.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So are you arguing that despite his use of medical psychiatric terminology such as transvestic fetishism, Blanchard actually meant by fetishism something broader and more colloquial?

Have you read the methodology quoted? The answer is in there.

 

[Red Cat]

Have you read the methodology quoted? The answer is in there.

It wasn't clear to me actually, hence why I'm asking you.

eta

Actually, don't bother. I'm not that interested in the specifics of Blanchard. But I am interested in definitions, categories, their history, who created them, how they're used, and I think those broader issues could help unstick some aspects of this debate generally. So I have no interest in being brought back on task as you see it.

 

[smokedout]

You've said on this thread that the 'woman born in a man's body' line is not important or only really held by a minority of transpeople or something similar. In itself this is a highly contentious claim and believe me you will be shot at very hard indeed for stating it in public; many people have it as act of faith that not accepting it is evidence that you are profoundly transphobic. To me this is real revolution eating itself stuff.

Lots of transpeople haave criticised the born in the wrong body narrative without being shot down in flames as transphobic, I would imagine it depends on the context and manner in which it is done.

Why can't transpeople argue for their rights as transpeople? Surely all sexual liberals/radicals/ whatever would support that?

I wouldn't be so sure, trans critical feminists are currently trying to spike proposed laws that might create a gender neutral category and would provide legal protection to non-binary people. And non-binary people are fighting for that.

But I'd suggest the main reason is that we live in a highly gendered society, and that many people do not question that and many support it. The idea of men's brains and women's brains is very widely held. And it seems easier for people within that binary to accept people transcending it, because they have a brain, or even spirit of the opposite gender to the one they were assigned then it is for people to conceptualise a new gender formation. I don't agree with that, but it's the political reality trans people are stuck with. And that some transpeople support, possibly because they feel it adequately describes their experiences, or possibly because they feel that's all that's on the table.

The whole terfs vs all transpeople is not a fair fight. I might be reaching with this analogy, but if Germaine Greer said something as spiteful about women who wear lipstick on national television as she has said about transwomen she would immediately be plunged into a battle not just within radical feminism, but also with the far larger part of society that has conservative views on the gender binary. But they would be very different fights with very different underlying political principles. Transgenderism is not a political position, so it is unfair to assume a more radical criticism of gender from trans people then in society at large, although I would guess that on the whole transpeople probably have more radical views on gender than the general population, but that's just a hunch.

And I know you concede this. But I'd suggest it describes the main reason why many trans people are not fighting for a third gender or the end of gender, and it's the same reason hardly anyone else is. And people want to live comfortably and at ease in the here and now, not fight for some unpopular and abstract notion of a third gender in the distant future. Even radicals are probably not that enticed by becoming a seperate distinct group that makes up less than one percent of the population, because it often doesn't end well for such groups. The pragmatic thing (and what's working) is to fight for their rights to be legally recognised, and as far as possible socially accepted, in their aquired gender now.

Obviously from a radical perspective this is all horribly reformist, but isn't that the nature of all liberationist struggles like this. The right to be able to go to the toilet safely and walk down the street without getting beaten up trumps any distant radical goals.

 

[The Flying Pig]

Corporate Shortlisted LB women

Inspirational Leaders | See the full inspirational leaders shortlist

PIPS BUNCE | Director at Credit Suisse
Pips is a Director and Head of Global Markets Technology Core Engineering Integration Components at Credit Suisse, and also co-lead of their LGBT and Ally network. Credit Suisse’s LGBT and Ally network fosters a workplace environment that is open and inclusive for all regardless of their gender identity, gender expression or sexuality. Pips identifies as gender fluid spending half her time as Phil and the other half as Pippa both at work and at home with her wife and children. She works closely with other firms educating around Trans* and non-binary identities and has produced articles and documentaries on the subject with organisations including the Financial Times and the BBC. Pips is highly active in working to eradicate marginalisation and promote the importance of authenticity.

Pips/Paul wakes up in the morning and then decides (I don't know how) whether he is Pips or Paul for his working day at Credit Suisse Bank in London. He was in the top 30 business women in the Financial times but cannot see him in the top 30 for men. When the banking and financial world is promoting and heralding this it makes me wonder why? Can anyone shed some light on my confusion here.

 

[The Flying Pig]

Corporate Shortlisted LB women

Inspirational Leaders | See the full inspirational leaders shortlist

PIPS BUNCE | Director at Credit Suisse
Pips is a Director and Head of Global Markets Technology Core Engineering Integration Components at Credit Suisse, and also co-lead of their LGBT and Ally network. Credit Suisse’s LGBT and Ally network fosters a workplace environment that is open and inclusive for all regardless of their gender identity, gender expression or sexuality. Pips identifies as gender fluid spending half her time as Phil and the other half as Pippa both at work and at home with her wife and children. She works closely with other firms educating around Trans* and non-binary identities and has produced articles and documentaries on the subject with organisations including the Financial Times and the BBC. Pips is highly active in working to eradicate marginalisation and promote the importance of authenticity.

Pips/Paul wakes up in the morning and then decides (I don't know how) whether he is Pips or Paul for his working day at Credit Suisse Bank in London. He was in the top 30 business women in the Financial times but cannot see him in the top 30 for men. When the banking and financial world is promoting and heralding this it makes me wonder why? Can anyone shed some light on my confusion here.

Where i have put he I could have put she or done half and half but maybe I just find it all a bit too confusing.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It wasn't clear to me actually, hence why I'm asking you.

sexual arousal from one or more types of feminine dressing either in public or in private

... at any time in a person's life

... is enough to get them a place on the Scale of Transvestic Fetishism

Hence both bimble and I talking about this fetishism and fetishism in general following this broad definition.

I've not been able to find anything meaningful by Blanchard on this particular topic that isn't behind a paywall. So I have to take these researchers on their word that this is following Blanchard's methodology. Maybe you'll have better success if you have a look and can report back.

 

[co-op]

Lots of transpeople haave criticised the born in the wrong body narrative without being shot down in flames as transphobic, I would imagine it depends on the context and manner in which it is done.

I know these voices exist but they are far less common than you say and seriously you will get shot down in flames as transphobic for saying it. Try getting Nigel Irritable to say it; he's obviously a publicly political person and his identity is known - there's no way he's ever going to challenge a claim like the 'wrong body' narrative in public even if he was smart or imaginative enough to see how reactionary it is. The risk of his being chucked out of the cool kids club that he thinks he's now in is just way too big. Someone would denounce him and that would be it; he's a transphobe. It's literally never going to happen.

But I'd suggest the main reason is that we live in a highly gendered society, and that many people do not question that and many support it. The idea of men's brains and women's brains is very widely held. And it seems easier for people within that binary to accept people transcending it, because they have a brain, or even spirit of the opposite gender to the one they were assigned then it is for people to conceptualise a new gender formation. I don't agree with that, but it's the political reality trans people are stuck with. And that some transpeople support, possibly because they feel it adequately describes their experiences, or possibly because they feel that's all that's on the table.

I've repeatedly said that it's obviously understandable why most trans people do not necessarily want to be the storm troops for non-binary sexual radicalism, as you say they have enough practical problems to deal with. And you're right of course that claiming your existence via demonstrating that you comply fully with currently powerful ideology like the patriarchal gender binary is a highly practical step - so long as the only thing you care about is a variant of transrights.

But it doesn't for one minute change the fact that it's a highly reactionary strategy if you believe (as I do) that the gender binary is reproduced via incessant coercion in contemporary society (meaning for example that the word 'cis' is almost certainly bullshit) and is deeply toxic for most individuals who experience chronic identity anxiety as a result with all the political consequences that follow.

If you really don't agree with the whole 'spirit of a woman' thing then we may not disagree about that much, welcome to transphobia.

 

[krtek a houby]

Fixed.

Excuse me, what are you accusing me of making up on this thread? I've given my opinion on how each person has different experiences. Is this not the case now? How is that deluded shit, exactly?

 

[smokedout]

I know these voices exist but they are far less common than you say and seriously you will get shot down in flames as transphobic for saying it. Try getting Nigel Irritable to say it; he's obviously a publicly political person and his identity is known - there's no way he's ever going to challenge a claim like the 'wrong body' narrative in public even if he was smart or imaginative enough to see how reactionary it is. The risk of his being chucked out of the cool kids club that he thinks he's now in is just way too big. Someone would denounce him and that would be it; he's a transphobe. It's literally never going to happen.

From Janet Mock



From Julie Serano

There is perhaps no better way to begin a discussion about being a trans woman with the quote that has become practically synonymous with that experience in the public's mind: that we feel like 'women trapped in men's bodies'. This saying has become so popular and widespread that it's safe to say these days that's it's far more often parodied by cissexuals than used by transsesuals to describe thir own experiences.

To my knowledge neither of them were accused of transphobia for saying this.

 

[smokedout]

Perhaps if people listened to what trans people say, rather than what trans exclusionary feminists tell people trans people say, this discussion would be less fractious.

 

[co-op]

Perhaps if people listened to what trans people say, rather than what trans exclusionary feminists tell people trans people say, this discussion would be less fractious.

I'm going on what people say when I say it. Including on this thread within the last couple of pages.

 

[LDC]

Perhaps if people listened to what trans people say...

Which trans people exactly? Just the ones that agree with you, or just any trans people? I listen to plenty of trans people, but they tend to be the communist/anarchist ones that are just as critical of some of trans activism and identity politics as some on here are.

 

[smokedout]

I'm going on what people say when I say it. Including on this thread within the last couple of pages.

Perhaps tone and content is a factor? Or perhaps people would prefer to hear from trans people describing how it feels to be trans rather than from non trans people telling trans people how they should feel about being trans?

 

[smokedout]

Which trans people exactly? Just the ones that agree with you, or just any trans people? I listen to plenty of trans people, but they tend to be the communist/anarchist ones that are just as critical of some of trans activism and identity politics as some on here are.

Just like it's possible to be an anti-racist but reject identity politics it is possible to support trans-inclusion and reject identity politics.

 

[TopCat]

If we were really going to do something as stupid as assigning adjectives like “silly”, “fearful” or “timorous” to whole genders on the basis of their transphobia, it would have to be to men, who are after all more likely to have an objection to sharing toilet facilities with trans people.

Why do you assert men are more likely to object to sharing toilets with trans people?
Any evidence to back this up?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Most younger leftists think it's entirely obvious that TERFs are no better than racists.

Many call them fascists. Which just exposes their political cluelessness.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

.

 

[TopCat]

Perhaps if people listened to what trans people say, rather than what trans exclusionary feminists tell people trans people say, this discussion would be less fractious.

But don't listen to Miranda Yardley as she is the wrong type of trans woman. In fact better to listen to trans theorists such as yourself?

 

[smokedout]

But don't listen to Miranda Yardley as she is the wrong type of trans woman. In fact better to listen to trans theorists such as yourself?

I did listen to what Miranda Yardley said. I'm still waiting for her to explain the how she squares the gender essentialism which is central to the autogynpehilia theory with her own rejection of essentialism.

 

[co-op]

But don't listen to Miranda Yardley as she is the wrong type of trans woman. In fact better to listen to trans theorists such as yourself?

FWIW if I've understood her right I don't agree with her but I think she is sure entitled to her point of view.