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Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

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Does anybody have anything from Argentina indicating problems? It's the best case study we have, with a self-certifying law in place since 2012, and all I can find are positive stories. It's a society where being a transvestite was illegal in some places, and the new law was very much proposed as a means of bringing to an end discrimination. As I said, all I can find is positive news about it.
 
MochaSoul 's question was not Is this quote 100% correct but how do people place voices like this, and Miranda Yardleys, who refuse to be put neatly in either camp of a simplistically imagined divide ( trans-women-are-women-end-of on one side and 'terfs'/transphobes on the other). Personally I'm really glad of them doing what they're doing, even if I don't agree with everything they say its good to hear dissenting complex views from people who have actually gone through transitioning and lived with these questions for years.
I don't think the view of Kristina Harrison as presented in that tweet is complex, tbh. I think it's simplistic.

As for people being silenced, who is being silenced? I see the likes of Julia Long invited to consult with government and appearing on the tv.
 
I'm not talking about that tweet, it's not a great tweet, this thread of hers was much better (not sure how to post a link to the whole thing but you can read it all if you click):



Question was where do voices like hers fit in,when she can't be called a terf or presumably a transphobe.
 
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Will it really change the whole status of humanity to allow a small number of people to identify differently to their birth gender?
Who decides that? Who's allowed in the debate?

I confess, I hadn't much thought about it until just a few weeks ago. I have been avidly reading this thread because, as littlebabyjesus points out, I was one of those women who were all for gender self-certification... until a friend of mine shouted a me in despair. She was fondled by her gynecologist during examination before she was 20. Now, this didn't happen here in Britain. No only that but it happened in an armed forces setting. She never pressed charges, never identified the man, kept the whole thing from even from her family, left the force and some time later she emigrated here. She's been here for 15 years or so. She has been grateful for the facility to ask for her gynecologist to be female ever since I told her about it. She shouted at me because "How could I be so flippant?!" (I was the one to ask about the facility and then tell her about it because she wouldn't go to the doctor despite her pelvic pain becoming disabling). She's afraid of the can of worms that will open itself in her mind at the thought of being examined by a transwoman especially if they are as successful passing as female as to pass her by. She's well aware of how flimsy the probability of that happening just as she is aware of the probabilities of male gynecologists being sexual predators but her fear is her fear.
Will she be dismissed as transphobic if she voices her fears to her GP? Will the GP be dismissed as transphobic if they raise her case?

Where is her voice in this debate?
 
I'm not talking about that tweet, it's not a great tweet, this thread of hers was much better (not sure how to post a link to the whole thing but you can read it all if you click):



Question was where do voices like hers fit in,when she can't be called a terf or presumably a transphobe.

Fair dos, yes I saw that earlier. Hadn't realised it was the same person.
 
Totally valid issue MochaSoul - I have said earlier in the thread that I am aware that although I don't much mind about trans women in 'women's spaces', I do know there are other women for whom it is problematic for reasons that are not about transphobia. I mean, I have never been abused, I have never felt a need for women's spaces but I appreciate it is different for others. It's a total bugger as there are really no happy compromises here for anyone - I recognise that if you have women's spaces that say they will allow anyone identifying as female to join, it will be unacceptable and distressing to some women for reasons that are not because they hate trans women and don't want them to have rights and freedom to live how they wish. And if you say that women's groups/spaces or at least some of them will not accept trans women, that is profoundly distressing and crushing to many trans women. It seems like there are some trans feminists who effectively say that they want equality but accept they cannot claim to be a woman without the trans prefix, and they don't have the right to access every women's space, but I expect they are a minority.
 
comrade spurski - I agree that we shouldn't call everyone expressing concerns about how we talk about gender and about women's spaces TERFS. I will use it for anyone insisting trans is cult of men who want to violate women's spaces and rights, though.

That is fair enough...it is a vile argument imo.

I know people who worry about having to share toilets and changing rooms but are not dismissive of trans men and women.

I know others that are ignorant of many of the issues and terminologies (as am I) and I mean ignorant in it's true sense not as an insult.

Neither of these things are hateful and it seems to me that people can be reassured and educated.


This is very different to calling trans women men and implying they are seeking to abuse women by pretending to be women.
 
Who decides that? Who's allowed in the debate?

I confess, I hadn't much thought about it until just a few weeks ago. I have been avidly reading this thread because, as littlebabyjesus points out, I was one of those women who were all for gender self-certification... until a friend of mine shouted a me in despair. She was fondled by her gynecologist during examination before she was 20. Now, this didn't happen here in Britain. No only that but it happened in an armed forces setting. She never pressed charges, never identified the man, kept the whole thing from even from her family, left the force and some time later she emigrated here. She's been here for 15 years or so. She has been grateful for the facility to ask for her gynecologist to be female ever since I told her about it. She shouted at me because "How could I be so flippant?!" (I was the one to ask about the facility and then tell her about it because she wouldn't go to the doctor despite her pelvic pain becoming disabling). She's afraid of the can of worms that will open itself in her mind at the thought of being examined by a transwoman especially if they are as successful passing as female as to pass her by. She's well aware of how flimsy the probability of that happening just as she is aware of the probabilities of male gynecologists being sexual predators but her fear is her fear.
Will she be dismissed as transphobic if she voices her fears to her GP? Will the GP be dismissed as transphobic if they raise her case?

Where is her voice in this debate?

No it ain't transphobic.
I wouldn't want to be intimately examined by a female doctor unless in an emergency but I am not sexist. I think women make equally good Drs and nurses as men but I would be really uncomfortable.

It seems to me that your friend or anyone else has the same right to feel as I do.

That is a world away to calling a trans woman a man imo.
 
No it ain't transphobic.

Says who? (besides you, that is). This thread has enough examples of asking questions being tarred with transphobia, TERFdom, MRactivism and right wing alignment and this thread is tame compared to "out there".

That is a world away to calling a trans woman a man imo.

What's the difference between calling a transwoman a man and seeing them as one?
 
What's the difference between calling a transwoman a man and seeing them as one?

For one thing, you can properly and meaningfully legislate for what people do (i.e. what they say to a trans person - if it crosses the line into abuse, or about trans people - if it amounts to e.g. incitement), but can't for what they think (i.e. how someone conceives of sex/gender).
 
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Will she be dismissed as transphobic if she voices her fears to her GP?
Maybe there's a difference between transphobia as a psychological condition and transphobia as a political idea. The fact she worries about the possibility that she might not be able to detect whether or not a gynaecologist is a transwoman does seem rather extreme. I would say dismissal would be as inappropriate as dismissing an agoraphobic's fear about leaving the house.
 
Says who? (besides you, that is). This thread has enough examples of asking questions being tarred with transphobia, TERFdom, MRactivism and right wing alignment and this thread is tame compared to "out there".



What's the difference between calling a transwoman a man and seeing them as one?

Deleted original response as I completely misunderstood this post.
 
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I ended up reading a 2015 urban thread about trans issues. A lot of the same points are hashed out but there is a lot more assertion that trans means being 'born in the wrong body'. People were so sure of that then but it seems to have fallen out of favour.
 
I ended up reading a 2015 urban thread about trans issues. A lot of the same points are hashed out but there is a lot more assertion that trans means being 'born in the wrong body'. People were so sure of that then but it seems to have fallen out of favour.

I re-read part of that thread too (the Goldsmiths one) and I noticed that too. What's interesting to me is that the 'wrong body' idea was absolutely dominant in that thread and when I and others criticised it we were definitely damned as transphobes.

But in this thread the people throwing around the transphobe slurs are either utterly dismissing the 'wrong body' theory (in fact Nigel Irritable has turned it right round and is now claiming that it's so wrong that only transphobes would even push the 'wrong body' theory) or are saying it's a marginal unimportant thing.

So I'm taking from that; that this is a fast-changing area of thought and the idea that there is a nice fixed straightforward position that radicals can easily unite around is obviously bullshit.

And the obvious follow-on from that is that we should take less notice of the shouty transphobe denouncers. If they can u-turn like this, so fast, on such central stuff, they really don't have a clue what they're talking about and should be treated with real caution.
 
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Is it transphobic to have a sex-based concept of man/woman?

I think some people would say that having a sex-based concept of man and woman means that you're denying trans people their existence.

Without wanting it to be a discussion that excludes people who don't have the 'right' language I don't see how any discussion around trans issues can be simple and not include questions about how we categorise the world around us.
 
I re-read part of that thread too (the Goldsmiths one) and I noticed that too. What's interesting to me is that the 'wrong body' idea was absolutely dominant in that thread and when I and others criticised it we were definitely damned as transphobes.

But in this thread the people throwing around the transphobe slurs are either utterly dismissing the 'wrong body' theory (in fact Nigel Irritable has turned it right round and is now claiming that it's so wrong that only transphobes would even push the 'wrong body' theory) or are saying it's a marginal unimportant thing.

So I'm taking from that; that this is a fast-changing area of thought and the idea that there is a nice fixed straightforward position that radicals can easily unite around is obviously bullshit.

And the obvious follow-on from that is that we should take less notice of the shouty transphobe denouncers. If they can u-turn like this, so fast, on such central stuff, they really don't have a clue what they're talking about and should be treated with real caution.

I was liking a few posts so may have brought that thread up in a few people's notifications again. I read the first fifty pages, it was fascinating.

Yeah, the assertion that 'trans women just ARE woman' along with the 'wrong body' assertion were very popular on that thread. They got tons of likes and were accepted as self-evidence truths. Anyone who wanted to discuss the nature of what it means to be a woman was met with fierce criticism. That's definitely changed on this thread, because a few feminists have written about the nature of growing up with with a female body and female socialisation, and it's been well-received. Really interesting how some of these key assertions have changed in just a short time.
 
I re-read part of that thread too (the Goldsmiths one) and I noticed that too. What's interesting to me is that the 'wrong body' idea was absolutely dominant in that thread and when I and others criticised it we were definitely damned as transphobes.

But in this thread the people throwing around the transphobe slurs are either utterly dismissing the 'wrong body' theory (in fact Nigel Irritable has turned it right round and is now claiming that it's so wrong that only transphobes would even push the 'wrong body' theory*) or are saying it's a marginal unimportant thing.

So I'm taking from that; that this is a fast-changing area of thought and the idea that there is a nice fixed straightforward position that radicals can easily unite around is obviously bullshit.

And the obvious follow-on from that is that we should take less notice of the shouty transphobe denouncers. If they can u-turn like this, so fast, on such central stuff, they really don't have a clue what they're talking about and should be treated with real caution.

I re-read some of that too, to check out the wrong body theory, because I recalled responding to that.

I also remember being quite afraid of being called a transphobe and trying to get it right.
 
Had another look for stuff about Argentina. The likes of Julia Long and Dr RadFem appear not to have written anything about the Argentinian experience at all. I find this rather odd. Nothing about Ireland or Malta either, from what I can find. They campaign against a particular law, but never refer to the places that already have such a law or the experiences of people there.

Maybe Miranda Yardley can help out. Have I just missed this stuff through inadequate google skills? Is it discussed in meetings?
 
I'm not talking about that tweet, it's not a great tweet, this thread of hers was much better (not sure how to post a link to the whole thing but you can read it all if you click):



Question was where do voices like hers fit in,when she can't be called a terf or presumably a transphobe.


Genuinely cannot understand what Kristina Harrison is saying here. Not that I disagree with it, I genuinely can't parse the meaning of that sentence at all. I think it might have a quadruple negative in it.
 
Genuinely cannot understand what Kristina Harrison is saying here. Not that I disagree with it, I genuinely can't parse the meaning of that sentence at all. I think it might have a quadruple negative in it.
She says,

I demand trans rights.
However what we have now is that the issue of trans rights has been conflated with the fight that some people want, which is to minimise or eliminate biological definitions of sex.
I think this is tragic, because it is happening at the expense of the trans issues I think are more important: equality; freedom from violence and discrimination; proper services; and a real fight against systemic transphobia.
 
Here you go, since you can't say anything except your repetitive strategic overview of the balance of forces on this - some straightforward yes/no questions;

Am I a terf because I think any group promoting patriarchal gender roles needs challenging, even if that group happens to be made up of transwomen?

No, can you point to any organised (political) group made up of transwomen who are promoting patriarchal gender roles? If you are talking about individuals and tumblr cliques then I guess the question would be does someone challenge transwomen more than ciswomen, or cismen? Because to do so - to treat a group differently, and more harshly, simply because they are trans - would of course be transphobia. I do not see the same energy poured into deconstructing Katie Price or any number of high profile macho men by trans critical feminists.

Am I a terf if I question how it is that a person 'becomes a woman' (or even stranger, just "is" a woman) when they have neither female biology (if that's relevant) nor any experience of the intensive gender-socialisation into a female gender role that women raised as women get?

No, not to question it. But to insist that anyone who does not meet a purely subjective definition of woman, which is not shared by everyone, has no right to ever organise politically as a woman, or enter a women only space, despite what other women might think, is trans exclusionary and that would make someone a terf.

Am I a terf if it appears to me that the word "cis" contains within it at the very least a strong implication that most people are non-coerced into their gender roles, are happy in them and that they constitute a 'natural' gender binary? (all of which assumption seems utterly wrong to me)

No, but to refuse to accept a linguistic need for a pragmatic antonym for trans, especially on the basis that there is no such thing as trangenderism - there are normal women and men who sometimes have 'pretend feels' - would be a characteristic of terf ideology.

Is it terf to reject the meaningfulness of the 'woman born in a man's body' narrative?

No, as I pointed out several trans people have done this themselves. But to reject the meaningfulness of gender dysphoria, or the meaningfulness of how some trans people report experiencing their bodies - to claim these things are delusions at best, or lies for some sinister rapey intent at worst - would also be a hallmark of terf ideology.

I don't think throwing terf around is particularly helpful because it is a highly ideological position which I'd suggest shares some common factors:-

That the gender binary is a social construct used to oppress biological women and to invert it reinforces rather than weakens the gender binary.

That you cannot change your sex and even if you change your gender (and parts of your biological sex) you should remain defined by your underlying sex - meaning presumably internal reproductive organs and chromosones.

That male to female transgenderism always has a sexual motive, either as a means to invade women's spaces and abuse women, or autogynephilia. As such transgenderism is a male sexual right's movement. Terfs don't tend to talk much about transwomen who are sexually orientated towards men.

That transwomen continue to display male patterns of violence and as such it is not safe to permit them to use women only services.

That female to male transgenderism is the result of the patriarchy causing lesbians to hate their bodies.

That trans inclusive ciswomen have been brainwashed by the patriarchy and need protecting by demanding on their behalf that all women only spaces become trans exclusive.

That transgenderism is an ideology designed to reinforce the gender binary rather than a way of how people have chosen to describe their lived experiences. As such the transgender phenomena is always inauthentic, trans people are liars or deluded.

That despite being mad, deluded, sexual perverts transwomen have enormous power due to their male socialization and have seized control of medical, legal, political and social institutions preventing any dissenting voices.

That transgenderism is a late 20th century western phenomena instigated by the pharmaceutical industry to trick men with a sexual fetish into buying estrogen pills.

That transgender rights and ciswomen's rights are always in opposition and that the growing social and legal acceptence of transgenderism represents the greatest current threat to women - and as such should be the priority of feminism. To counter this threat feminists should work towards morally mandating transsexuality out of existence using legal, social and medical means.

That such is the threat to women that any tactic can be justified no matter the harm such as lying to try and smear transwomen as sexual predators. Similarly any allegiance against transwomen is legitimate, even with the worst kind of patriarchs such as the right wing press and old school conservatives here and Trump supporting Republicans and evangelicals in the states. This is a fight for survival and so the enemy's enemy is always their friend.


I'd suggest anyone who appears to agree with all or most of this could be rightly described as a terf, and sadly that includes most of the women curently leading the fight against the GRA amendments.
 
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She says,

I demand trans rights.
However what we have now is that the issue of trans rights has been conflated with the fight that some people want, which is to minimise or eliminate biological definitions of sex.
I think this is tragic, because it is happening at the expense of the trans issues I think are more important: equality; freedom from violence and discrimination; proper services; and a real fight against systemic transphobia.

Thanks for that. This is why I avoid twitter, some concepts require more than one sentence.
 
But to insist that anyone who does not meet a purely subjective definition of woman...

Saying you're a woman because you feel like what you feel it must feel like to be a woman is literally as subjective a definition of 'woman' as is possible to conceive!

No, but to refuse to accept a linguistic need for a pragmatic antonym for trans...

There is no 'linguistic' need. Linguistically, 'not trans' would suffice. Any 'need' is purely ideological. (Such that, to label as 'cis' women who don't want to be so labelled is a deliberate and disrespectful ideologically-motivated act.)
 
No, can you point to any organised (political) group made up of transwomen who are promoting patriarchal gender roles? If you are talking about individuals and tumblr cliques then I guess the question would be does someone challenge transwomen more than ciswomen, or cismen? Because to do so - to treat a group differently, and more harshly, simply because they are trans - would of course be transphobia. I do not see the same energy poured into deconstructing Katie Price or any number of high profile macho men by trans critical feminists.



No, not to question it. But to insist that anyone who does not meet a purely subjective definition of woman, which is not shared by everyone, has no right to ever organise politically as a woman, or enter a women only space, despite what other women might think, is trans exclusionary and that would make someone a terf.



No, but to refuse to accept a linguistic need for a pragmatic antonym for trans, especially on the basis that there is no such thing as trangenderism - there are normal women and men who sometimes have 'pretend feels' - would be a characteristic of terf ideology.



No, as I pointed out several trans people have done this themselves. But to reject the meaningfulness of gender dysphoria, or the meaningfulness of how some trans people report experiencing their bodies - to claim these things are delusions at best, or lies for some sinister rapey intent at worst - would also be a hallmark of terf ideology.

I don't think throwing terf around is particularly helpful because it is a highly ideological position which I'd suggest shares some common factors:-

That the gender binary is a social construct used to oppress biological women and to invert it reinforces rather than weakens the gender binary.

That you cannot change your sex and even if you change your gender (and parts of your biological sex) you should remain defined by your underlying sex - meaning presumably internal reproductive organs and chromosones.

That male to female transgenderism always has a sexual motive, either as a means to invade women's spaces and abuse women, or autogynephilia. As such transgenderism is a male sexual right's movement. Terfs don't tend to talk much about transwomen who are sexually orientated towards men.

That transwomen continue to display male patterns of violence and as such it is not safe to permit them to use women only services.

That female to male transgenderism is the result of the patriarchy causing lesbians to hate their bodies.

That trans inclusive ciswomen have been brainwashed by the patriarchy and need protecting by demanding on their behalf that all women only spaces become trans exclusive.

That transgenderism is an ideology designed to reinforce the gender binary rather than a way of how people have chosen to describe their lived experiences. As such the transgender phenomena is always inauthentic, trans people are liars or deluded.

That despite being mad, deluded, sexual perverts transwomen have enormous power due to their male socialization and have seized control of medical, legal, political and social institutions preventing any dissenting voices.

That transgenderism is a late 20th century western phenomena instigated by the pharmaceutical industry to trick men with a sexual fetish into buying estrogen pills.

That transgender rights and ciswomen's rights are always in opposition and that the growing social and legal acceptence of transgenderism represents the greatest current threat to women - and as such should be the priority of feminism. To counter this threat feminists should work towards morally mandating transsexuality out of existence using legal, social and medical means.

That such is the threat to women that any tactic can be justified no matter the harm such as lying to try and smear transwomen as sexual predators. Similarly any allegiance against transwomen is legitimate, even with the worst kind of patriarchs such as the right wing press and old school conservatives here and Trump supporting Republicans and evangelicals in the states. This is a fight for survival and so the enemy's enemy is always their friend.


I'd suggest anyone who appears to agree with all or most of this could be rightly described as a terf, and sadly that includes most of the women curently leading the fight against the GRA amendments.

Thanks for this post, I haven't got time to respond to it today, maybe for a couple of days but I will.
 
There is no 'linguistic' need. Linguistically, 'not trans' would suffice. Any 'need' is purely ideological. (Such that, to label as 'cis' women who don't want to be so labelled is a deliberate and disrespectful ideologically-motivated act.)

In this context, not trans is just a synonym for default / normal. That IMO makes it less useful than the term cis.

I also think it's OK to say, I don't see myself as cis. I also think it's OK to not talk about it. The term exists for people who do want to.
 
In this context, not trans is just a synonym for default / normal. That IMO makes it less useful than the term cis.

I also think it's OK to say, I don't see myself as cis. I also think it's OK to not talk about it. The term exists for people who do want to.

I’ve mostly had it barked at me pejoratively. As it’s another way for the idpolers have to invalidate my views.
 
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