co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Thanks, I did read your post but was concentrating on the theoretical ideas more so forgot this bit.
Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?
- Thread starter The Flying Pig
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Thanks, I did read your post but was concentrating on the theoretical ideas more so forgot this bit.
I confess to coming at this from an equally reprehensible personal position...but to be perfectly honest, the supposed 'oppressions' of people being mean to you, Krtek, because you define your sexual orientation as whatever, pales into utter insignificance (this is not Uganda) compared to removing fundamental human needs of shelter, food, access to healthcare, water, personal safety. And vague accusations of colleagues nastiness and bigotry, whilst completely unacceptable, is nothing compared to the vicious slaps doled out to the poor, the powerless, the disenfranchised and disabled...and I resent the energy being spent going down this individualised rabbithole which meanders onwards forever.
But hey, that's just me and I accept the folly of my position...and having stated it, I can hardly whine if my simplistic views are slated.
But hey, that's just me and I accept the folly of my position...and having stated it, I can hardly whine if my simplistic views are slated.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Of course!
The interminable waffle, the enthusiasm to smear (terfy ffs) and most of all, the reluctance to actually engage on any level other than a particular form of (dated) toxic and highly codified demands and exhortations. Shoulda known from the off.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
I thought NI was CWI?
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Oh my god, we are taking lectures on correct feminist theory from an SWP hack? No wonder he's so defensive and evasive.
Sunset Tree
Well-Known Member
I basically agree with you. I don't want to minimise the gender-based difficulties people have. I totally understand that you can be well-off and still have a really difficult time grappling with your identity. But the loudest idpol activists are usually thriving in so many ways they take for granted, it makes their understanding of themselves as oppressed (and white cis hetero males as the oppressor) actually insulting. Strip out the class analysis and you're left with a nonsense understanding of the world.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Hehehe
Just winding the silly fucker up. Whichever of the 57 varieties, it is a shot one.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
That's not in itself a bad thing. Wanting a degree of control over interactions - especially when they touch on extremely personal matters - is not a weird or inhuman desire.
Um yep, social class (with all its complex meanings) does, imo, work as a foundation for understanding how oppression is played out...and essentially, work as a conduit for communicating the often difficult theoretical questions (for me) which are expressed in a dynamic environment...or yes, everything solid does indeed melt into air.
At its most basic, I admit to not really knowing SeaStar but also, not really wanting to engage with her either. Does this make me transphobic...or just operating on the often shallow, frequently misplaced personal level of internet relationships. And why would it have even the tiniest relevance to issues in the wider world? Not to mention, my online life and relationships are only the smallest part of my day, contribute almost zero to political activism.
Perspective needed, surely...especially relating to issues where we are most deeply and personally invested.
At its most basic, I admit to not really knowing SeaStar but also, not really wanting to engage with her either. Does this make me transphobic...or just operating on the often shallow, frequently misplaced personal level of internet relationships. And why would it have even the tiniest relevance to issues in the wider world? Not to mention, my online life and relationships are only the smallest part of my day, contribute almost zero to political activism.
Perspective needed, surely...especially relating to issues where we are most deeply and personally invested.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
The “gender critical” just “asking questions” again, by which I mean swarming the BBC Woman’s Hour Twitter feed denouncing them for interviewing a black transwoman about racism.
30 years ago, I was induced to go along to a co-counselling group (was having a torrid time with partner)...where one of the most pressing concerns of the group was centred on child sexual abuse. My friend and neighbour (who persuaded me to go) was almost wistful and dismayed that, until that point, she had no memory, recollection or indeed, reason to claim abuse in her past...and yet...she formulated a false memory/ suppression claim where she had been abused but had blocked it out...but by bringing this up, was now a bona-fide member of the oppressed group.
I was fucking flabberghasted. She pursued this for some months, to the huge distress of her parents and siblings...although, once the group eventually lost its internal cohesion (by a series of competing claims to be the most damaged - one even produced a badge which said 'public school survivor), her false memories also vanished.
However, for a few months, she sincerely believed herself to be irredeemably broken while relying on the almost cultish group approval.
I was disturbed and appalled by the whole counselling thing, which seemed to be wholly narcissistic...and yet I am also aware that this is not any sort of representation of counselling or even group dynamics...but the eagerness with which she was so terribly keen to be accepted, 'special' and even excused any amount of stuff because of this 'abuse' was telling and also spoke to various other anxieties and insecurities which she felt unable to articulate (unlike the current topic of interest).
We want, so very desperately, to belong, to be part of something, to have an identity...while at the same time, there is a concerted effort to dissolve the 'mob' into ever smaller, ineffective groups. Even seemingly innocuous things such as pricing wc families out of football, closing pubs and workingmens (apols) clubs, stifling education and policing the internet...not to mention abhorrent housing and employment conditions, all of which militate against collective endeavour. Having a group identity is comforting, offers us security and empathy and forms friendship networks which have replaced older family and community belonging...but we should always be mindful of the systemic processes at play which will undermine us, segregate us and keep us at each others throat.
Like VP, I also do a lot of form filling for benefit claims for my neighbours - many of whom are prejudiced, with dodgy as fuck ideas about the world. I don't particularly even like them very much...but the issue (for me) is class solidarity...which will always take precedence...and we can have a good argument about immigrants as well.
I was fucking flabberghasted. She pursued this for some months, to the huge distress of her parents and siblings...although, once the group eventually lost its internal cohesion (by a series of competing claims to be the most damaged - one even produced a badge which said 'public school survivor), her false memories also vanished.
However, for a few months, she sincerely believed herself to be irredeemably broken while relying on the almost cultish group approval.
I was disturbed and appalled by the whole counselling thing, which seemed to be wholly narcissistic...and yet I am also aware that this is not any sort of representation of counselling or even group dynamics...but the eagerness with which she was so terribly keen to be accepted, 'special' and even excused any amount of stuff because of this 'abuse' was telling and also spoke to various other anxieties and insecurities which she felt unable to articulate (unlike the current topic of interest).
We want, so very desperately, to belong, to be part of something, to have an identity...while at the same time, there is a concerted effort to dissolve the 'mob' into ever smaller, ineffective groups. Even seemingly innocuous things such as pricing wc families out of football, closing pubs and workingmens (apols) clubs, stifling education and policing the internet...not to mention abhorrent housing and employment conditions, all of which militate against collective endeavour. Having a group identity is comforting, offers us security and empathy and forms friendship networks which have replaced older family and community belonging...but we should always be mindful of the systemic processes at play which will undermine us, segregate us and keep us at each others throat.
Like VP, I also do a lot of form filling for benefit claims for my neighbours - many of whom are prejudiced, with dodgy as fuck ideas about the world. I don't particularly even like them very much...but the issue (for me) is class solidarity...which will always take precedence...and we can have a good argument about immigrants as well.
Sunset Tree
Well-Known Member
This is the woman who said all white people are guilty of racial violence?
I didn't think much of that short clip. Typical smug liberalism: if people don't agree it's because they just don't understand yet and need to be educated. I hate that attitude.
The comments under that are full of the 'trans woman ARE women' mantra, and if you don't agree you need education. Does an education just mean agreeing with them? I still don't really get this. If it's not a 'woman trapped in a mans body' and just a desire to live as a woman, is that the same as just 'being' a woman? These comments don't help.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I don’t think much of it either. But I think considerably less of the dozens of bigots whose response to a black transwoman talking about racism isn’t to engage, critically or otherwise, with what she is saying but to line up to condemn woman’s hour for interviewing a “man”. These people are not looking for a debate, they are looking to hound trans people from the public sphere.
bimble
floofy
Why did you characterise those people you’re angry with on Twitter as gender critical / asking questions when they show no sign of either? You seem a bit confused Nigel Irritable , having said (many times) that Terfs are a tiny insignificant vestigial subsect of feminists it looks like you see them everywhere.
comrade spurski
Well-Known Member
I am no expert on this subject but have a few views.
because some call a trans woman a man and refuse to acknowledge her as a woman it is not ok to accuse everyone who thinks or believes that trans women do not fully understand what it is like to be a woman and therefore what it is like to be oppressed as a woman trans phobic.
I do not think that labelling every woman who is verbalising this and other concerns as trans phobic as a Terf is helpful, fair or acceptable.
Calling a trans woman a man is disgraceful and, in my opinion, hateful and I have no time for those people but they seem to be a minority imo.
This analogy does not fit the issue but imo does fit how people could approach the debate.
Back around 2000 I was involved in campaigning to support asylum seekers where I worked.
A lot of people, including a lot of 2nd and 3rd generation black and asian people were expressing very anti immigrant and anti asylum seeker views.
The choice was to condemn them all or to take up the debate. None were organised racist types but if I had simply condemned them as though they were BNP types I'd have been isolated but because I listened I was able to answer a lot of questions and sway some and soften the attitude of others. This worked to such a degree that I was asked to write a factsheet about asylum seekers for the local union by members who wanted information to take up the arguments.
At no point did I soften or hide my anti racist views but I listened so I could answer concerns rather than lecture. It was slow (and irritating at times) but well worth it...and in truth the was no short cut.
Your argument reads like "I know you are trans phobic so fuck you."
By all means stand your ground against people who are refusing to accepting trans woman and trans men but you appear to be using a broad brush which wrongly paints far too many as abusers.
Most people are confused by the terminology, do not fully understand the issues because (in my opinion) a few are intent on using acronyms, jargon and speaking like intellectuals. An honest discussion occasionally breaks out in this thread but from my perspective it is a thread full of insults, point scoring and intellectual vanity (on many sides)
Like I said I am no expert but the important issue here is building alliances because the bigger alliance the lesser the chance of trans phobia taking hold.
And building alliances requires genuine debate on all sides not hectoring.
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Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I realize that it can be difficult to tell far right or social conservative transphobes from ”gender critical” transphobes when they are all posting much the same thing, but even the more obtuse among us should be able to work out which group people called things like “Dr Radfem” or with bios reading “still a radical feminist” belong to.
As for seeing them everywhere, no, fortunately not. Just in the pages of right wing (British) media and in the occasional social media swarm. I’ve never once encountered someone pushing anti-trans “feminist” views in the real world, not socially, not at work, not on the left here and not in the abortion rights movement here.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
NI isn't SWP. (Well unless he's recently changed party)
Cloo
Banana for scale
Lewis Hamilton thing seems to have bought the TERFS out on Twitter again wittering about a trans cult determined to transition children and get everyone sexually abused by making them so confused about gender that they will NEVER understand sexual boundaries again. 
Occurred to me that the simple answer about gender and boundaries is that you teach what appropriate behaviour is or isn't regardless of the gender or perceived gender of the person doing it. If someone in a changing room, for example, were to behave inappropriately and upsettingly, you report them to someone, whatever the perpetrator's gender is or appears to be.
Occurred to me that the simple answer about gender and boundaries is that you teach what appropriate behaviour is or isn't regardless of the gender or perceived gender of the person doing it. If someone in a changing room, for example, were to behave inappropriately and upsettingly, you report them to someone, whatever the perpetrator's gender is or appears to be.
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Which only shows how full of idiotic shit Twitter is.Lewis Hamilton thing seems to have bought the TERFS out on Twitter again wittering about a trans cult determined to transition children and get everyone sexually abused by making them so confused about gender that they will NEVER understand sexual boundaries again.
bemused
Well-Known Member
God forbid someone has a joke with their nephew without having to apologize for offending people he'll never meet.
I joked a lot with the kids in my family sorry if any of our mutual teasings offended anyone.
Cloo
Banana for scale
It really is... and why anyone really bothers to argue there I just don't know, no one is ever going to change anyone's opinion in an argument on there. But I find it useful to get out of my bubble a bit and see what people I disagree with might be thinking and why.
comrade spurski - I agree that we shouldn't call everyone expressing concerns about how we talk about gender and about women's spaces TERFS. I will use it for anyone insisting trans is cult of men who want to violate women's spaces and rights, though.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Do you do so in front of five millions followers?
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
Cloo
Banana for scale
I think it's one of those areas where we have to strike a difference between 'theoretical' and 'reality'. There may be a 'theoretical' issue with self-identification but will that really translate into an actual issue given the small minority of people we are talking about here? Will it really change the whole status of humanity to allow a small number of people to identify differently to their birth gender?
If it affects women then that’s half the country’s population; not ‘a small minority of people’.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
One problem that immediately strikes me here is that there are natal women who support the idea of gender self-certification. This tweet doesn't seem to acknowledge that.
Cloo
Banana for scale
The small minority I'm talking about is trans people, not people affected. Btw, for context I am a cis woman.
So one argument I just heard on Twitter was 'I always told my kids to find a woman if they are on their own and have a problem and that won't work now'. Except I've always told my kids just to find someone else with kids. And if you still say 'only women', well what is the chance that the woman approached happens to be a trans woman who is a predatory sex abuser? I mean, seriously.
So one argument I just heard on Twitter was 'I always told my kids to find a woman if they are on their own and have a problem and that won't work now'. Except I've always told my kids just to find someone else with kids. And if you still say 'only women', well what is the chance that the woman approached happens to be a trans woman who is a predatory sex abuser? I mean, seriously.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Like the kid's going to know anyway! Are they going to ask for the birth certificate or something?
bimble
floofy
MochaSoul 's question was not Is this quote 100% correct but how do people place voices like this, and Miranda Yardleys, who refuse to be put neatly in either camp of a simplistically imagined divide ( trans-women-are-women-end-of on one side and 'terfs'/transphobes on the other). Personally I'm really glad of them doing what they're doing, even if I don't agree with everything they say its good to hear dissenting complex views from people who have actually gone through transitioning and lived with these questions for years.
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