Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Miranda Yardley]

If they see themselves as a collection of fractured identities, what's stopping anyone from valuing them because of or despite that?

You're completely missing my point.

 

[Jonti]

I think its very dubious to apply our word trandgender here, for a start in south asia nobody says 'hijras are women', they've been legally recognised as a third gender for years.

I'm certainly no expert, and I bow to Wikipedia when it says "Hijra is a term given to eunuchs, intersex people, and transgender people in South Asia."

Transgender is not just a Western thing. It's interesting to see how it fares in other cultures and societies.

 

[smokedout]

I’m not getting into this debate but using phrases like “just perverts in love with themselves” is really not helpful. People’s sexuality is always - to me - socially defined, there is no such thing as a ‘pure’ innate sexuality but condemning any manifestation of it as ‘perverted’ is always going to be part of an attempt to set up a hierarchy of worthiness or righteousness. It’s what imo we should be moving away from. It is what it is.

Of course, my language was used to show what I believe is the ideology which lies behind the dogged insistence that autogynephilia explains transgenderism despite the weakness of the theory.

 

[bimble]

In India, if they were considered women, they'd proably be treated even worse!

Which kind of begs the question if we're going to bumble about subsuming the ancient category and cultural practice of Hijra under our trans umbrella where are all the indian transmen?

 

[smokedout]

I think its very dubious to apply our word trandgender here, for a start in south asia nobody says 'hijras are women', they've been legally recognised as a third gender for years.

This may be a mistranslation, but it appears to be the word used by the Indian judiciary

Seldom, our society realises or cares to realise the trauma, agony and pain which the members of Transgender community undergo, nor appreciates the innate feelings of the members of the Transgender community, especially of those whose mind and body disown their biological sex. Our society often ridicules and abuses the Transgender community and in public places like railway stations, bus stands, schools, workplaces, malls, theatres, hospitals, they are sidelined and treated as untouchables, forgetting the fact that the moral failure lies in the society's unwillingness to contain or embrace different gender identities and expressions, a mindset which we have to change.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Moser's study does have sampling problems, but even Lawrence concedes it shows something 'resembles' autogynephilia.

Use of a convenience sample means that the conclusions from that study specifically cannot be extended to the general population. That and the way the questions are redrafted (which do not compare like with like) means it has no real worth.

But that aside, if 15% of androphilic transsexuals experience autogynephilia, and a significanat minority of non-androphilic transsexuals don't then Blanchard is wrong, there are not two types but two tendencies.

And given that many transpeople never experience autogynephilia, or only experience it around adolecence or pre-transition, then that suggests it is a symptom, not cause of trangenderism. It doesn't seem unlikely to me that in a world where women's bodies are so highly fetished and objectified that some people with discordant gender identities might develop fetishes about their body and gender identity particularly at adolescence. And Lawrence's claim that when this goes away it is because the transperson has developed a romantic attraction to and pair bonded with themselves, similar to a long time married couple who never have sex anymore, is just bonkers. The hoops that are jumped through to defend this theory are astounding, particularly given that most of Blanchard's ideas, such as that of erotic location target errors, are pure speculation.

The whole point is that the typology shows there are two types of transsexual, whatever any causality. And as I have shown, the fetishisation does seem to play a part in people's decisions to transition.

Pornography And Autogynephilia In The Narratives Of Adult Transgender Males

 

[smokedout]

Which kind of begs the question if we're going to bumble about subsuming the ancient category and cultural practice of Hijra under our trans umbrella where are all the indian transmen?

Here. With an ample explanation of why they might not be so visible.

 

[bimble]

I’m no expert either but have been very interested in the Hijra phenomenon since I first saw some of them in India years ago (doing the special kind of threatening begging that many do to survive). It does seems to me quite silly to deny the particularity of the ancient history & religious and cultural practices that define the Hijra and just say nope they’re trans women same as anywhere else.

 

[smokedout]

Use of a convenience sample means that the conclusions from that study specifically cannot be extended to the general population. That and the way the questions are redrafted (which do not compare like with like) means it has no real worth.



The whole point is that the typology shows there are two types of transsexual, whatever any causality. And as I have shown, the fetishisation does seem to play a part in people's decisions to transition.

Pornography And Autogynephilia In The Narratives Of Adult Transgender Males

Somewhat ironic that you should criticise a sampling method then come up with something based on a handful of people's quotes you found on the internet. Again it doesn't strike me as suprising that someone would look to pornography as a way to understand their sexuality, or that transwomen might be aroused by porn featuring transwomen who they can more easily identify with. This really seems to be saying look, look, transsexuals have a sexuality, therefore none of the other stuff can be authentic. No other group, including fetishists, are assumed to be so soley and universally controlled by sexual desires. And that you pick and choose which transsexuals this applies to (ones not like you) really does start to look like prejudice.

 

[smokedout]

I’m no expert either but have been very interested in the Hijra phenomenon since I first saw some of them in India years ago (doing the special kind of threatening begging that many do to survive). It does seems to me quite silly to deny the particularity of the ancient history & religious and cultural practices that define the Hijra and just say nope they’re trans women same as anywhere else.

Of course, but what is does show is that some forms of gender trancendence, with many of the same behaviours including bodily/genital modifications, have emerged in a very different culture - rather undermining the claim made by some trans critical feminists that transgenderism is a late 20th century phenomena invented by the pharmaceutical industry.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I’m no expert either but have been very interested in the Hijra phenomenon since I first saw some of them in India years ago (doing the special kind of threatening begging that many do to survive). It does seems to me quite silly to deny the particularity of the ancient history & religious and cultural practices that define the Hijra and just say nope they’re trans women same as anywhere else.

Yes, it's known as 'cultural appropriation'. It also misses the point in that many 'third gender' categories in indigenous cultures are exist as a way to accommodate homosexual males into society. What we know as 'transgender' is predominantly the domain of heterosexual males.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Somewhat ironic that you should criticise a sampling method then come up with something based on a handful of people's quotes you found on the internet. Again it doesn't strike me as suprising that someone would look to pornography as a way to understand their sexuality, or that transwomen might be aroused by porn featuring transwomen who they can more easily identify with. This really seems to be saying look, look, transsexuals have a sexuality, therefore none of the other stuff can be authentic. No other group, including fetishists, are assumed to be so soley and universally controlled by sexual desires. And that you pick and choose which transsexuals this applies to (ones not like you) really does start to look like prejudice.

Not really. It's established practice that convenience sampling cannot be used like that. And my piece is not making a generalisation, it's making an observation.

 

[smokedout]

Yes, it's known as 'cultural appropriation'. It also misses the point in that many 'third gender' categories in indigenous cultures are exist as a way to accommodate homosexual males into society. What we know as 'transgender' is predominantly the domain of heterosexual males.

Not if referral rates amongst young people are to be believed, transboys outnumbered transgirls last year I believe.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Not if referral rates amongst young people are to be believed, transboys outnumbered transgirls last year I believe.

That seems to be a distinct population with a distinct cause (rapid onset gender dysphoria). I'm not sure why anyone would consider this a cause for celebration.

 

[co-op]

Of course, my language was used to show what I believe is the ideology which lies behind the dogged insistence that autogynephilia explains transgenderism despite the weakness of the theory.

Yes apologies if my quote made it look otherwise. My point was that even if it is AGP that (solely, partially, whatever) drives people to transition, I don't care about that as such. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[smokedout]

That seems to be a distinct population with a distinct cause (rapid onset gender dysphoria). I'm not sure why anyone would consider this a cause for celebration.

Rapid onset gender dysphoria seems to be a term referenced in just one recent study featuring an online questionaire of parents who were recruited via the websites of three trans critical feminist groups. What was that you were saying about sample biases?

If young transmen are able to understand themselves better and feel more confident coming out or accessing treatment, then yes, I'd say that is a good thing. If your position is that they are all deluded liars then I suppose you wouldn't think so.

 

[smokedout]

Yes apologies if my quote made it look otherwise. My point was that even if it is AGP that (solely, partially, whatever) drives people to transition, I don't care about that as such. There's nothing wrong with that.

I don't really disagree, except that it doesn't seem to be a very coherent or accurate explanation of what is going. And given that transwomen are often highly sexualised, both as woman but also as as hyper-sexually motivated males deviants, I'm not sure how helpful it is, unless of course you are trying to build a case that transwomen are hyper-sexually motivated male deviants. I'd suggest this is the sole reason this out of date, incomplete, weakly evidenced and at times batshit insane theory is given much credence today.

 

[co-op]

I don't really disagree, except that it doesn't seem to be a very coherent or accurate explanation of what is going. And given that transwomen are often highly sexualised, both as woman but also as as hyper-sexually motivated males deviants, I'm not sure how helpful it is, unless of course you are trying to build a case that transwomen are hyper-sexually motivated male deviants. I'd suggest this is the sole reason this out of date, incomplete, weakly evidenced and at times batshit insane theory is given much credence today.

FWIW on my shallow knowledge if anyone's saying that AGP is THE cause of the desire to transition that seems crude and simplistic to me. But equally, rejecting AGP as ever having any component part in a desire to transition also seems really unlikely. Why wouldn't there be an erotic component to gender identity? Or to gender transition?

Unless you are committed to the idea that a person just "is", and were born, a different gender than the one which they have been assigned in which case it becomes necessary to obliterate AGP because it relates so strongly to the act of transition rather than the magical state of being the correct gender.

Do you think AGP is a component of some people's desire to transition? Or is it never?

 

[Jonti]

Yes, it's known as 'cultural appropriation'. It also misses the point in that many 'third gender' categories in indigenous cultures are exist as a way to accommodate homosexual males into society. What we know as 'transgender' is predominantly the domain of heterosexual males.

This reads as dismissive of the Indian experience. I feel more like applauding the fact the country has elected a trans woman as a mayor. That's probably a first for anywhere in the world.

 

[bimble]

So following this logic ends up in a position of musing that India is a light to the world in terms of its understanding of gender & (trans)women’s rights. That really is quite bonkers.

 

[Jonti]

I’m no expert either but have been very interested in the Hijra phenomenon since I first saw some of them in India years ago (doing the special kind of threatening begging that many do to survive). It does seems to me quite silly to deny the particularity of the ancient history & religious and cultural practices that define the Hijra and just say nope they’re trans women same as anywhere else.

Except no-one's said that.

Hirja consider themselves trangender, and Indian law recognises them as a third gender. That's far from saying they're trans women same as anywhere else. We could probably learn a thing or two from them.

 

[bimble]

We could probably learn a thing or two from them.

Like what? Having read that article in the Daily Mail what is it you want us to learn from them?

 

[Jonti]

Like what? Having read that article in the Daily Mail what is it you want us to learn from them?

To be sufficiently politically progressive as to start electing transgender Mayors? To have the third gender recognised in law?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

If your position is that they are all deluded liars then I suppose you wouldn't think so.

I think you've just smoked yourself out. Why is your thinking so black and white, why can you not deal with nuance? The corollary of 'yes, lots of young girls are suddenly seeking to transition to be men, this is of concern' is not 'these girls are all deluded liars'.

We can always help transgender people better if we can understand why they think the way they do about themselves.

 

[bimble]

To be sufficiently politically progressive as to start electing transgender Mayors? To have the third gender recognised in law?

Yes, India very politically progressive, a model to us all, especially around women's rights, see all the rape cases that get thrown out with 'well she shouldn't have been outside wearing trousers etc.

 

[Jonti]

Dismissive much?

 

[bimble]

Dismissive much?

Of the idea that India's poltical & judicial system has a lot to teach us about overcoming the damaging impact of the gender binary? Yes.

 

[Jonti]

Well, that's a relief. I was beginning to think you'd taken issue with something I'd said.

 

[co-op]

We could probably learn a thing or two from them.

We could I'm sure but gay sex is still illegal in India which makes it pretty backward legally as far as L & G rights go. And the fact that India is ahead on mtf trans rights (although arguably not on ftm trans rights) once again highlights how being apparently trans-progressive can in fact underwrite really reactionary patriarchal attitudes to sex and gender.

 

[Thimble Queen]

I’m no expert either but have been very interested in the Hijra phenomenon since I first saw some of them in India years ago (doing the special kind of threatening begging that many do to survive). It does seems to me quite silly to deny the particularity of the ancient history & religious and cultural practices that define the Hijra and just say nope they’re trans women same as anywhere else.

Is anyone saying that on this thread though? If they have, I've missed it.