Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[co-op]

eh? I'm not dismissing the argument at all. I'm just disputing one persons claim that their view is the only one.

If that's all you're doing fine, the absolutely standard line is that discussing the question 'what is a woman' (& /man, but actually no one really seems to care that much about that) is transphobia, unless whatever your definition of 'woman' (/man etc) is one that means that a transwomen is 100% a paid-up woman with the only difference being that she has been 'born in the wrong body' and therefore has a life experience which is totally different (but also sort of not really different at all because inside she's always been a woman and therefore has always experienced life as a woman).

If you don't think that other definitions are possible and that they may not be transphobic & also that signing up to the 'wrong body' thesis can lead to some highly reactionary gender assumptions then we don't disagree here. I'm fascinated by the fact in this debate here that the 'woman born in a man's body' idea has already been semi-dismissed as a sort of fringe thing that most people have got past now - and by posters who have been pretty speedy in reaching for the 'transphobe' slur.

That's certainly not been true in the very recent past on these boards and I'd gamble it's not true in most of the rest of the places where this sort of debate crops up. Evidence of the thread is that Irish trots would still revile you for it - I mean that's strictly a fringe thing obviously but they are always loud voices in these kinds of debate.

 

[Athos]

Yardleys

Are they claiming that any more than others on the other 'side' are? Surely both are putting their views across?

 

[belboid]

They said the opposite on the last page.



Your persistent dishonest characterisation of anyone who disagrees with you is a bar to meaningful discussion.

And, for the record, I think MY is wrong. But I'm not sue the value of engagging with them on these points. Compassion seems a more fruitful avenue than science or philosophy.

If you think MY is wrong, why not pick her up on it? You are consistently picking up arguments from one side of the debate only. Why?

 

[Athos]

So it’s not currently falsifiable in practise.

I'm not sure you understand what falsifiability is, in terms of the philosophy of science.

 

[Athos]

If you think MY is wrong, why not pick her up on it? You are consistently picking up arguments from one side of the debate only. Why?

I literally explained why in the post you quoted!

 

[belboid]

I literally explained why in the post you quoted!

‘I’m not sure it’s wirth the effort’ - not much of an explanation is it

 

[Athos]

‘I’m not sure it’s wirth the effort’ - not much of an explanation is it

That's not what I said.

 

[purenarcotic]

Can someone explain what gender non conforming means? I think I understand the principle but surely we should be noting that interests / toys etc are not gender specific and anyone could do them, not reinforcing that to engage in it is non conforming. I may have misunderstood what the term means though.

 

[belboid]

That's not what I said.

Sorry, but it looks pretty similar

And, for the record, I think MY is wrong. But I'm not sue the value of engagging with them on these points.

 

[Treacle Toes]

You are aware that many of the people you seem to be working with politically do want to repeal the 2004 act aren't you? Have you challenged them about that? What might that mean for you if it happens?

I don't believe there is a realistic chance the 2004 GRA will be repealed.

Isn't this a bit like canvassing for UKIP but saying that you don't believe they'll get elected anyway so it's okay because they have some good things to say?

 

[Athos]

Sorry, but it looks pretty similar

To you maybe.

 

[bimble]

Can someone explain what gender non conforming means? I think I understand the principle but surely we should be noting that interests / toys etc are not gender specific and anyone could do them, not reinforcing that to engage in it is non conforming. I may have misunderstood what the term means though.

I think it means exactly what you've just said. And so.. I agree exactly, as in the problem is the pink and blue isles in the toyshop, not the child who wants to play with 'the wrong kind of toy'.

 

[belboid]

To you maybe.

Thank you for the detailed response expected.

 

[belboid]

If that's all you're doing fine, the absolutely standard line is that discussing the question 'what is a woman' (& /man, but actually no one really seems to care that much about that) is transphobia, unless whatever your definition of 'woman' (/man etc) is one that means that a transwomen is 100% a paid-up woman with the only difference being that she has been 'born in the wrong body' and therefore has a life experience which is totally different (but also sort of not really different at all because inside she's always been a woman and therefore has always experienced life as a woman).

If you don't think that other definitions are possible and that they may not be transphobic & also that signing up to the 'wrong body' thesis can lead to some highly reactionary gender assumptions then we don't disagree here. I'm fascinated by the fact in this debate here that the 'woman born in a man's body' idea has already been semi-dismissed as a sort of fringe thing that most people have got past now - and by posters who have been pretty speedy in reaching for the 'transphobe' slur.

That's certainly not been true in the very recent past on these boards and I'd gamble it's not true in most of the rest of the places where this sort of debate crops up. Evidence of the thread is that Irish trots would still revile you for it - I mean that's strictly a fringe thing obviously but they are always loud voices in these kinds of debate.

I have had umpteen of these debates lately, for fairly obvious reasons, and that has honestly never been the response I’ve seen. I have seen people say they’ll walk out if they’re not going to be addressed by the ‘correct’ gender pronouns, and sometimes being an arse, but when I’ve been having discussions they’ve overwhelmingly been just that, discussions.

As to ‘wrong body’ notions being potentially reactionary, yes it can be. But both ‘sides’ in this argument have a range of views on whether there is, for example a male and a female brain, so that reactionary potential is there on both sides. Also, what people mean by ‘wrong body’ varies amongst trans people. For some it is meant almost literally, for others it’s just a useful shorthand.

 

[Athos]

Thank you for the detailed response expected.

Well, I don't really know what to say. I gave a response; you claimed I said something else; I pointed out I didn't; you suggested they're the same; I pointed out they're not. What more is there?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Can someone explain what gender non conforming means? I think I understand the principle but surely we should be noting that interests / toys etc are not gender specific and anyone could do them, not reinforcing that to engage in it is non conforming. I may have misunderstood what the term means though.

It means you don't conform to sex-based cultural stereotypes.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Isn't this a bit like canvassing for UKIP but saying that you don't believe they'll get elected anyway so it's okay because they have some good things to say?

No, far from it. And yes, I'd change the GRA. Parts of it are very unfair.

 

[Treacle Toes]

No, far from it. And yes, I'd change the GRA. Parts of it are very unfair.

So you can answer that question then. Which parts would you change?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

So you can answer that question then. Which parts would you change?

If it were still in point, I'd have addressed the inequality created by allowing a same sex marriage between for example a 'trans man' and a woman by enacting 'equal marriage' sooner. But that was fixed in 2014 so we don't need to worry about it.

I'd redraft the legislation to clarify sex is biological reproductive class and gender are cultural stereotypes. This would be to make this legislation and the Equalities Act clearer.

I'd remove the mechanism by which the legislation works through the issuance of a new short form birth certificate, as a lot of trans people think this part of the law is silly and retcons their life. Or at least I'm make the issuance of the birth certificate up to the trans person if they want it or not.

 

[smokedout]

If it were still in point, I'd have addressed the inequality created by allowing a same sex marriage between for example a 'trans man' and a woman by enacting 'equal marriage' sooner. But that was fixed in 2014 so we don't need to worry about it.

I'd redraft the legislation to clarify sex is biological reproductive class and gender are cultural stereotypes. This would be to make this legislation and the Equalities Act clearer.

I'd remove the mechanism by which the legislation works through the issuance of a new short form birth certificate, as a lot of trans people think this part of the law is silly and retcons their life. Or at least I'm make the issuance of the birth certificate up to the trans person if they want it or not.

So you wouldn't support this?

Do you support morally mandating transsexuality out of existence like Janice Raymond, or banning trans healthcare like Sheila Jeffries? I don't think you do, so can't understand why on earth you are organising within a political current that seeks to destroy your life. Doesn't this stuff ever come up in chats.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

So you wouldn't support this?

Do you support morally mandating transsexuality out of existence like Janice Raymond, or banning trans healthcare like Sheila Jeffries? I don't think you do, so can't understand why on earth you are organising within a political current that seeks to destroy your life. Doesn't this stuff ever come up in chats.

As I’ve said many times, I defend only my own arguments, not other people’s. If you’re interested in anything I have to say, please bring that up.

 

[smokedout]

As I’ve said many times, I defend only my own arguments, not other people’s. If you’re interested in anything I have to say, please bring that up.

I'm not asking you to defend their arguments. I'm asking why you have chosen to organise with people you don't actually seem to agree with on many of the key issues. You are playing a key role in an agenda that wants to mandate transsexuality out of existence, or at the very least signifiantly harm transpeople. I'm asking you how you justify that? The changes they seek might only be a British Donald Trump (or your pal David Davies) away. How would you feel if trans healthcare was banned, or removed from the NHS, or GRC's were all declared invalid? Would you still think you were on the right side?

 

[smokedout]

Thanks

There's a pretty solid rebuttal of autogynephilia, which discusses whether it is falsifiable here: http://www.juliaserano.com/av/Serano-CaseAgainstAutogynephilia.pdf

 

[TruXta]

There's a pretty solid rebuttal of autogynephilia, which discusses whether it is falsifiable here: http://www.juliaserano.com/av/Serano-CaseAgainstAutogynephilia.pdf

Cheers.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I'm not asking you to defend their arguments. I'm asking why you have chosen to organise with people you don't actually seem to agree with on many of the key issues. You are playing a key role in an agenda that wants to mandate transsexuality out of existence, or at the very least signifiantly harm transpeople. I'm asking you how you justify that? The changes they seek might only be a British Donald Trump (or your pal David Davies) away. How would you feel if trans healthcare was banned, or removed from the NHS, or GRC's were all declared invalid? Would you still think you were on the right side?

Again, I defend only my own position.

Please explain how anyone I work with has made a realistic call for harm to trans people.

If you’re worried about losing trans healthcare, I think it’s a massive mistake for trans activists to be lobbying for it to be taken out of mental health, because where then does it sit? I think the demedicalising approach of now is a bad mistake. Also, it ignores the problem of comorbid mental illnesses which never seem to get taken seriously never mind treated. Transactivism is selling trans people short. It promises gold and delivers tin foil.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Julia Serano in “Whipping Girl”, Serano’s “transfeminist manifesto”:

When I hit puberty, my newly found attraction to women spilled into my dreams of becoming a girl. For me, sexuality became a strange combination of jealousy, self-loathing, and lust. Because when you isolate an impressionable transgender teen and bombard her with billboard ads baring bikiniclad women and boys’ locker room trash talk about this girl’s tits and that girl’s ass, then she will learn to turn her gender identity into a fetish… my thirteen-year-old brain started concocting scenarios straight out of SM handbooks. Most of my fantasies began with my abduction: I’d turn to putty in the hands of some twisted man who would turn me into a woman as part of his evil plan. It’s called forced feminization, and it’s not really about sex. It is about turning the humiliation you feel into pleasure, transforming the loss of male privilege into the best fuck ever.​

This is classic autogynephilia, written by Serano’s own hand.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Please explain how anyone I work with has made a realistic call for harm to trans people.

You do not work with, organise with, support or ally with Venice Allan (as quoted in that screenshot?
So you don't think 'getting rid of' the GRA 2004 in it's entirety is harmful to trans people for example?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Julia Serano in “Whipping Girl”, Serano’s “transfeminist manifesto”:

When I hit puberty, my newly found attraction to women spilled into my dreams of becoming a girl. For me, sexuality became a strange combination of jealousy, self-loathing, and lust. Because when you isolate an impressionable transgender teen and bombard her with billboard ads baring bikiniclad women and boys’ locker room trash talk about this girl’s tits and that girl’s ass, then she will learn to turn her gender identity into a fetish… my thirteen-year-old brain started concocting scenarios straight out of SM handbooks. Most of my fantasies began with my abduction: I’d turn to putty in the hands of some twisted man who would turn me into a woman as part of his evil plan. It’s called forced feminization, and it’s not really about sex. It is about turning the humiliation you feel into pleasure, transforming the loss of male privilege into the best fuck ever.​

This is classic autogynephilia, written by Serano’s own hand.

Right. Do other trans women that this theory seeks to label also reflect the same/similar fantasies of self obsession and transformation? I am wondering how common it is.

 

[belboid]

Well, I don't really know what to say. I gave a response; you claimed I said something else; I pointed out I didn't; you suggested they're the same; I pointed out they're not. What more is there?

You didn’t point out they’re not the same. You obfuscated. You have consistently criticised one side of the argument but not the other.

Take a side, absolutely fine. But be honest about it, the same as you are demanding if others.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Julia Serano in “Whipping Girl”, Serano’s “transfeminist manifesto”:

When I hit puberty, my newly found attraction to women spilled into my dreams of becoming a girl. For me, sexuality became a strange combination of jealousy, self-loathing, and lust. Because when you isolate an impressionable transgender teen and bombard her with billboard ads baring bikiniclad women and boys’ locker room trash talk about this girl’s tits and that girl’s ass, then she will learn to turn her gender identity into a fetish… my thirteen-year-old brain started concocting scenarios straight out of SM handbooks. Most of my fantasies began with my abduction: I’d turn to putty in the hands of some twisted man who would turn me into a woman as part of his evil plan. It’s called forced feminization, and it’s not really about sex. It is about turning the humiliation you feel into pleasure, transforming the loss of male privilege into the best fuck ever.​

This is classic autogynephilia, written by Serano’s own hand.

This particular story starts with a transgender teen. It rather begs the question 'how did the person become a transgender teen?'