Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[mojo pixy]

Religion is protected under the Equalities Act. Why not gender identity?

Again it's thoughts and feelings. I'd prefer our protections to be based on something more material.

Religion is thoughts and feelings. Or it's identity. Or both. In any case, no different from gender identity IMO.

 

[smokedout]

This particular story starts with a transgender teen. It rather begs the question 'how did the person become a transgender teen?'

Precisely, Serano covers this in the link I posted, arguing that it is a symptom rather than a cause of transgenderism. And that autogynephilia as reported by Blanchard is not uncommon in androphilic transsexuals and cis women.

 

[krtek a houby]

How can a child, or any other human being, know what it feels like to be the opposite sex? Or be anyone/anything other than themselves?

Because it's not as black and white as that. For examples: We know we're not male because despite being born male we feel female, we know we're not straight because we feel gay, we know we're not confined to just preferring one sexuality because we're bisexual or whatever other label one wants to use. We don't feel "right" in our "assigned" roles. Whether they've been assigned by biology or social conditioning.

 

[mojo pixy]

I wanted to be a girl when I was a boy. I thought I should have been and it annoyed me that I was a boy. A lot of water has passed under a lot of bridges since, I'm a man now and I do reasonably well at it, and my adult perspective is that it's a shame we seem to want to fit children into neat boxes we're comfortable with, rather than letting them make their world how they see it. FWIW I'm ''non-binarian'', that's a term I've just made up, or maybe haven't, that fits me into another neat box suitable for public consumption. But He / Him / His are all fine because life's easier for me that way.

Anyway, my son's primary school has a mural on one wall that reads, All different, All equal. That's what we're teaching kids from the youngest age now as a basic principle of their society. Where does it end? I guess it ends in a place where a lot of grown ups feel a bit uncomfortable.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Precisely, Serano covers this in the link I posted, arguing that it is a symptom rather than a cause of transgenderism. And that autogynephilia as reported by Blanchard is not uncommon in androphilic transsexuals and cis women.

I’ve never disputed that autogynephilia is not uncommon in HSTS. I believe in Blanchard’s work he’s quoted around 15% of HSTS exhibit that behaviour.

Women do not exhibit autogynephilia. Moser’s 2009 paper really is utter junk.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Because it's not as black and white as that. For examples: We know we're not male because despite being born male we feel female, we know we're not straight because we feel gay, we know we're not confined to just preferring one sexuality because we're bisexual or whatever other label one wants to use. We don't feel "right" in our "assigned" roles. Whether they've been assigned by biology or social conditioning.

Please describe how it feels to be female.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

my adult perspective is that it's a shame we seem to want to fit children into neat boxes we're comfortable with, rather than letting them make their world how they see it.

Yes I agree. I see many people describing themselves as collections of fractured identities, rather than seeing themselves and others as whole people. How can you have a happy fulfilling relationship with yourself, never mind anyone else, if this is how you see yourself and others?

 

[Shechemite]

Because it's not as black and white as that. For examples: We know we're not male because despite being born male we feel female, we know we're not straight because we feel gay, we know we're not confined to just preferring one sexuality because we're bisexual or whatever other label one wants to use. We don't feel "right" in our "assigned" roles. Whether they've been assigned by biology or social conditioning.

And those feelings aren’t seperate from the social context, and are tied up with ideas and beliefs.

And people make sense of their feelings in all manner of different ways.

 

[krtek a houby]

Please describe how it feels to be female.

Only the individual can do that. There's no template, you just feel what you are or should or want to be. For instance, there were pressures on me to be straight and it took me a long time to get my head round the fact that I wasn't.

 

[co-op]

.. but not gynephilic transsexuals who are just perverts in love with themselves.

.

I’m not getting into this debate but using phrases like “just perverts in love with themselves” is really not helpful. People’s sexuality is always - to me - socially defined, there is no such thing as a ‘pure’ innate sexuality but condemning any manifestation of it as ‘perverted’ is always going to be part of an attempt to set up a hierarchy of worthiness or righteousness. It’s what imo we should be moving away from. It is what it is.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You are consistently picking up arguments from one side of the debate only.

As are you. What a bizarre thing to say.

 

[Athos]

You didn’t point out they’re not the same. You obfuscated. You have consistently criticised one side of the argument but not the other.

Take a side, absolutely fine. But be honest about it, the same as you are demanding if others.

I've started my side; I'm on the side of women - all women, including trans women.

I've made it clear that I'm trans inclusive. What I've criticised are the sloppy thinking, and the dishonest gaslighting and bullying employed by some others who hold that view (and in this thread) to force women to think the same, and deny them the right to discus this issue.

But I've also criticised much of the rhetoric of the exclusionary side, too. It's silly not true to suggest I haven't.

 

[elbows]

Yes I agree. I see many people describing themselves as collections of fractured identities, rather than seeing themselves and others as whole people. How can you have a happy fulfilling relationship with yourself, never mind anyone else, if this is how you see yourself and others?

I may also ask how people can have a happy and fulfilling relationship with themselves when there are others who think they know best, ready and willing to invalidate these peoples sense of self and whittle their complex existences down to something generic that can be neatly dealt with via a crude theory.

Honestly, your own experiences give you a particular kind of insight into these matters but they arguably make you a potentially worse gatekeeper of these issues than someone more naive. No matter how valid the road you travelled, its unlikely to be wide enough to accommodate the rich array of traffic.

 

[bimble]

I've started my side; I'm on the side of women - all women, including trans women.

So therefore you're not on the side of Miranda Yardley because they don't lay claim to the title woman or the pronouns thereof.

 

[iona]

Can someone explain what gender non conforming means? I think I understand the principle but surely we should be noting that interests / toys etc are not gender specific and anyone could do them, not reinforcing that to engage in it is non conforming. I may have misunderstood what the term means though.

I would describe it as acknowledging, rather than necessarily reinforcing, gender roles. In an ideal world there'd be no stereotypes to conform to but while there are it makes sense to have language to talk about them.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I’m not getting into this debate but using phrases like “just perverts in love with themselves” is really not helpful. People’s sexuality is always - to me - socially defined, there is no such thing as a ‘pure’ innate sexuality but condemning any manifestation of it as ‘perverted’ is always going to be part of an attempt to set up a hierarchy of worthiness or righteousness. It’s what imo we should be moving away from. It is what it is.

I agree with this. Suspect smokedout would agree with it too. However Blanchard et al would not agree.

 

[Athos]

So therefore you're not on the side of Miranda Yardley because they don't lay claim to the title woman or the pronouns thereof.

I've said a number of times already that I disagree with much of what they say.

 

[co-op]

I agree with this. Suspect smokedout would agree with it too. However Blanchard et al would not agree.

I don’t know Blanchards work in any depth, I’ve heard about AGP but that’s it. Yes it looks at face value to be a theory that pathologises transpeople.

But equally the idea that there is some hard border that can be defined between someone’s gender identity and their erotic sense of them self also seems unlikely to me.

 

[comrade spurski]

lesbians of my acquaintance have been on the pill because they found it eased period pains

My eldest was taking the pill at 14 or 15 for that exact reason.
The number of adults who told me that I was being naive and that she "had to be sexually active" was insane.

 

[Red Cat]

I may also ask how people can have a happy and fulfilling relationship with themselves when there are others who think they know best, ready and willing to invalidate these peoples sense of self and whittle their complex existences down to something generic that can be neatly dealt with via a crude theory.

This isn't peculiar to trans issues is it? I'd say it's part of the experience of growing up. A lot of parenting techniques and education are based on crude theory. You could very easily argue that most scientific explanations of human ways of being are crude.

 

[Jonti]

For a bit of international context, in India, there are up to 1.2 million transgender people, also known as hijras.

Don't really want to give the Wail the links or the traffic, but I found the on-line article something of an eye-opener.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Yes I agree. I see many people describing themselves as collections of fractured identities, rather than seeing themselves and others as whole people. How can you have a happy fulfilling relationship with yourself, never mind anyone else, if this is how you see yourself and others?

What is a 'whole person' ?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Only the individual can do that. There's no template, you just feel what you are or should or want to be. For instance, there were pressures on me to be straight and it took me a long time to get my head round the fact that I wasn't.

I see you have drawn a distinction between 'feel like a woman' and 'feel like you want to be a woman'.

 

[TruXta]

What is a 'whole person' ?

The secular version of the soul, afaict

 

[Miranda Yardley]

The secular version of the soul, afaict

No, there's nothing metaphysical behind it. What I'm saying is about looking at yourself and others as people, and valuing them for who they are, rather than seeing them as collections of fractured (disconnected) identities.

 

[bimble]

For a bit of international context, in India, there are up to 1.2 million transgender people, also known as hijras.

I think its very dubious to apply our word trandgender here, for a start in south asia nobody says 'hijras are women', they've been legally recognised as a third gender for years.

 

[Athos]

I think its very dubious to apply our word trandgender here, for a start in south asia nobody says 'hijras are women', they've been legally recognised as a third gender for years.

In India, if they were considered women, they'd proably be treated even worse!

 

[TruXta]

No, there's nothing metaphysical behind it. What I'm saying is about looking at yourself and others as people, and valuing them for who they are, rather than seeing them as collections of fractured (disconnected) identities.

If they see themselves as a collection of fractured identities, what's stopping anyone from valuing them because of or despite that?

 

[smokedout]

I’ve never disputed that autogynephilia is not uncommon in HSTS. I believe in Blanchard’s work he’s quoted around 15% of HSTS exhibit that behaviour.

Women do not exhibit autogynephilia. Moser’s 2009 paper really is utter junk.

Moser's study does have sampling problems, but even Lawrence concedes it shows something 'resembles' autogynephilia.

But that aside, if 15% of androphilic transsexuals experience autogynephilia, and a significanat minority of non-androphilic transsexuals don't then Blanchard is wrong, there are not two types but two tendencies.

And given that many transpeople never experience autogynephilia, or only experience it around adolecence or pre-transition, then that suggests it is a symptom, not cause of trangenderism. It doesn't seem unlikely to me that in a world where women's bodies are so highly fetished and objectified that some people with discordant gender identities might develop fetishes about their body and gender identity particularly at adolescence. And Lawrence's claim that when this goes away it is because the transperson has developed a romantic attraction to and pair bonded with themselves, similar to a long time married couple who never have sex anymore, is just bonkers. The hoops that are jumped through to defend this theory are astounding, particularly given that most of Blanchard's ideas, such as that of erotic location target errors, are pure speculation.

 

[Thimble Queen]

I think its very dubious to apply our word trandgender here, for a start in south asia nobody says 'hijras are women', they've been legally recognised as a third gender for years.

If they are a third gender then this could also come under the trans umbrella since they are identify as a different gender than what they were assigned at birth. Most Hijra are assigned male at birth.