Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[krtek a houby]

Christ you’re thick

Great contribution. I'm delighted you have it all sussed and are not at all perplexed.

 

[Shechemite]

Great contribution. I'm delighted you have it all sussed and are not at all perplexed.

Lol

 

[krtek a houby]

Lol

If you've got an issue with me, fine. But don't fuck up an already divisive thread with it. I don't agree with her comments; I don't believe she is correct with her every utterance. But that's between myself and her. Stop jumping in and shit stirring for the sake of it.

 

[Shechemite]

If you've got an issue with me, fine. But don't fuck up an already divisive thread with it. I don't agree with her comments; I don't believe she is correct with her every utterance. But that's between myself and her. Stop jumping in and shit stirring for the sake of it.

How about you don’t deliberately misunderstand what posters like Miranda Yardley have said; and don’t make sarcy comments to others when they point out where you’ve failed to understand a (fairly simple) point.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

That's your opinion. It's down to the individual. Your experiences can no more dictate to others than mine can.

No, you literally did. Literally!

 

[Shechemite]

mBut that's between myself and her. Stop jumping in and shit stirring for the sake of it.

If you want a private conversation do it via pm. The nature of a forum like this is that others can and will comment on your posts

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I think the consequence is that the autogynephile theory has allowed some to attempt to cast transgenderism as a male sexual rights movement

I think that lesbians are being called transphobic for not wanting 'trans women' as partners has a far more blatant bearing on this.

 

[krtek a houby]

How about you don’t deliberately misunderstand what posters like Miranda Yardley have said; and don’t make sarcy comments to others when they point out where you’ve failed to understand a (fairly simple) point.

How about you stay out of my face with your own brand of sarccy comments - that's pretty much your m.o. here. There's nothing else to you.

 

[krtek a houby]

No, you literally did. Literally!

Literally did what?

 

[Shechemite]

How about you stay out of my face with your own brand of sarccy comments - that's pretty much your m.o. here. There's nothing else to you.

No. You don’t get to dictate whether others can comment on your posts or not. You’ve tried this before with other posters.

 

[krtek a houby]

No. You don’t get to dictate whether others can comment on your posts or not. You’ve tried this before with other posters.

Fuck right off with that. You're dictating to me. And don;t bring cross beef into it, either. I have as much right to question statements as much as the next person.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

A recent large scale study did not replicate Blanchard's findings, but interestingly did find that age and ethnicity were siginifcant predicters of autogynephilia. This suggests it could be a fetish which has developed in reponse to social attitudes and taboos within a given time/culture and leads the authors to speculate that autogynephilia “may be a historically fading phenomenon.”

Great critique of Nuttbrock here:

Autogynephilia and the Typology of Male-to-Female Transsexualism: Concepts and Controversies

I've reproduced the quote below about the age relationship. I have noticed a lot of the younger transgender males display characteristics of physiological and anatomical autogynephilia, in particular focus on hips, pregnancy and lactation. This is very consistent with behaviours of older transgender males, formerly transvestites. I think it's great that society has become more tolerant of males who wish to transition, now if we can achieve this would them claiming on some level to be 'female' we might get somewhere.

Nuttbrock et al. (2011) proposed an "important, albeit highly theoretical, hypothesis — that transvestic fetishism may be a historically fading phenomenon" (p. 256). Their conjecture derived from their study of transvestic fetishism — the most prevalent manifestation of autogynephilia — in a diverse group of transgender males, including a discrete subgroup of nonandrophilic cross-dressers. Because these cross-dressers, unlike most other participants, were primarily older and white (Hwahng & Nuttbrock, 2007), Nuttbrock et al. found that transvestic fetishism was correlated with older age and white ethnicity as well as nonandrophilic orientation. Accordingly, Nuttbrock et al. argued that transvestic fetishism could theoretically be primarily a generational phenomenon, because among older white MtFs, "dressing in the female role was frequently a highly secretive and exotic phenomenon . . . [which] may largely account for the[ir] higher levels of transvestic fetishism" (p. 256). Nichols (2014) made a similar argument concerning autogynephilia generally, albeit without offering either evidence or explanation: "Autogynephilia is disappearing . . . . Blanchard's theory is not a description of an essentialist phenomenon but rather of a cultural one, a presentation of gender bound by time and place" (p. 72).

Reports of the impending disappearance of autogynephilia, however, appear to be premature. Erotic cross-dressing and other manifestations of autogynephilia have been documented for centuries, in both Western and non-Western cultures (Lawrence, 2013). Adolescents with transvestic fetishism continue to be referred for clinical evaluation in the twenty-first century (Zucker et al., 2012). Moreover, some MtF transsexuals who have completed sex reassignment and live publicly as women report that they continue to experience autogynephilic arousal (Lawrence, 2005, 2013), suggesting that the secretive cross-dressing invoked by Nuttbrock et al. (2011) is not a prerequisite for such arousal. Concluding that autogynephilia is disappearing because it is more often reported by older MtF transgender persons makes as much sense as concluding that Alzheimer's disease is disappearing because it is diagnosed primarily in older adults. Autogynephilia seems likely to remain a clinically important phenomenon for the foreseeable future.​

 

[Treacle Toes]

Fuck right off with that. You're dictating to me. And don;t bring cross beef into it, either. I have as much right to question statements as much as the next person.

Why are you even letting him bait you? You are right about his MO, ignore his comments. He hasn't got much going on as you know and certainly isn't worth your attention.

 

[Shechemite]

Fuck right off with that. You're dictating to me. And don;t bring cross beef into it, either. I have as much right to question statements as much as the next person.

I won’t ‘fuck off’

I’m not ‘dicatating’ anything to you.

Not bringing ‘beef.

You weren’t questioning anything, you were (deliberately) misunderstanding what Miranda was saying to you - and when this was pointed out to you, your response was to be a sarcy twat.

Do you understand what Miranda was saying to you.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

The sciencification of this just makes me laugh to be honest. A survey of 29 people is not really needed to confirm that the advice to women in our society on how to 'feel sexy' generally starts with the instruction to buy some expensive lingerie.

The study is meaningless for many reasons. Also from the link I posted above:

Moser (2009) reported the responses of 29 female hospital employees to his Female Autogynephilia Scale, which used items modified from scales originally devised by Blanchard (1985, 1989b) to measure autogynephilia and related traits (Lawrence, 2010b). About half of respondents reported at least occasional "autogynephilic" arousal. But Moser modified Blanchard's original language on the advice of female colleagues and friends, to better investigate the specifics of their self-reported arousal or to provide "needed context" (Moser, 2010a, p. 694). Consequently, Moser's modified items arguably did not adequately distinguish between being aroused by wearing sexy clothing or by imagining that a potential romantic partner finds one attractive — which natal women apparently do experience — and being aroused simply by the idea that one is wearing women's clothing or has a woman's body — which natal women probably rarely if ever experience (Lawrence, 2010b). Moser (2009) conceded that "It is possible that autogynephilia among MTFs and natal women are different phenomena and the present inventories lack the sophistication to distinguish these differences" (p. 544). Lawrence (2010b) argued that this was probable, on the grounds that Moser's items "fail[ed] to adequately assess the essential element of autogynephilia — sexual arousal simply to the thought of being a female" (p. 3).​

 

[Shechemite]

Why are you even letting him bait you? You are right about his MO, ignore his comments. He hasn't got much going on as you know and certainly isn't worth your attention.

Hi rutita

You’ll note the point I made upthread was shared by others - hardly pointless.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Literally did what?

This:

Only the individual can do that. There's no template, you just feel what you are or should or want to be. For instance, there were pressures on me to be straight and it took me a long time to get my head round the fact that I wasn't.

I see you have drawn a distinction between 'feel like a woman' and 'feel like you want to be a woman'.

 

[krtek a houby]

I won’t ‘fuck off’

I’m not ‘dicatating’ anything to you.

Not bringing ‘beef.

You weren’t questioning anything, you were (deliberately) misunderstanding what Miranda was saying to you - and when this was pointed out to you, your response was to be a sarcy twat.

Do you understand what Miranda was saying to you.

You are bringing cross thread beef into it. Mentioning other posters, calling me thick as if it has any bearing on this thread. Which is about being perplexed and the complexity of transgender. You may well have it all sussed - good for you. But I don't. And Miranda's take on it may not necessary be mine.

 

[krtek a houby]

This:



I see you have drawn a distinction between 'feel like a woman' and 'feel like you want to be a woman'.

Everybody has a different take, a different journey. There's no set rules in the LGBT community and one person's experience, hopes, needs and feelings aren't necessarily going to be another's.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Hi rutita

You’ll note the point I made upthread was shared by others - hardly pointless.

Other people managed to be less abusive about the point being made. He's right about your MO. It's noticable that you like to have a go at him. Just back the fuck off. You don't win anything by being a prick. This is currently the most interesting thread on Urban IMO. Why not engage with the discussion instead?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

A person with no kind of fetish whatever wrt clothing is probably in the minority in our society.

Really? That's quite a bold assertion to make. In my own experience people with fetishes are in the minority, but that may be my own confirmation bias (I do not and would not consider dudes with fetishes).

I agree, and feel vaguely sorry for any such person.

Why would you? I certainly don't want your pity and It's a bit insulting to say tbh. Should the tables be turned "I feel vaguely sorry for those with fetishes" there would be outrage.

There's a point somewhere to be made here about fetishes, capitalism, power structures and consumerism but I'm not sure if this is the thread for it, though.

 

[Shechemite]

Other people managed to be less abusive about the point being made. He's right about your MO. It's noticable that you like to have a go at him. Just back the fuck off. You don't win anything by being a prick. This is currently the most interesting thread on Urban IMO. Why not engage with the discussion instead?

Hmm, you may want to read our interaction yesterday/today - doesn’t really fit with your characterisation.

You seem happy to flit between complaining about personal abuse, and making abusive comments.

But I guess that’s your MO.

Shall we return to the thread?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Have we reached the point where Krtek and co derail the thread and get it binned then?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Everybody has a different take, a different journey. There's no set rules in the LGBT community and one person's experience, hopes, needs and feelings aren't necessarily going to be another's.

But there is a distinction...

 

[snadge]

Interesting article here

The Experiment on Our Children: Doctors Don’t Know Who the Real Trans Kids Are


Although this is US based it also reflects what is happening here in UK, especially with crazies like this.

Lobby group demands free sex change hormones for children | Daily Mail Online

(Apologies for DM link)

 

[bimble]

Fair enough FabricLiveBaby! I think maybe the whole idea of what is and isn't defined as a fetish is worth looking at (if not here). In what you were quoting above I was using the term very broadly, to include things like my penchant for pocketsquares and a crisp shirt, which aren't (arguably) the same as only being turned on by say rubber or extreme footwear or whatever.

 

[krtek a houby]

But there is a distinction...

Please elaborate. I genuinely don't follow what you're trying to say.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Hmm, you may want to read our interaction yesterday/today - doesn’t really fit with your characterisation.

You seem happy to flit between complaining about personal abuse, and making abusive comments.

But I guess that’s your MO.

Shall we return to the thread?

My MO is I can give as good as I get, your snide sarcasm and assumption of righteousness nd intelligence by declaring other people 'thick' doesn't wash with me. Get over it and yes return to the thread, haven't seen you post much up until now but look forward to your contributions, naturally.

Or you could call me hysterical again. That worked a treat. Either way you'll not get another response.

 

[Shechemite]

My MO is I can give as good as I get, your snide sarcasm and assumption of righteousness by declaring other people 'thick' doesn't wash with me. Get over it and yes return to the thread, haven't seen you post much up until now but look forward to your contributions, naturally.

Or you could call me hysterical again. That worked a treat. Either way you'll not get another response.

Dunno how calling people thick equates to assuming righteousness, but glad you’re happy to get back on topic.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fair enough FabricLiveBaby! I think maybe the whole idea of what is and isn't defined as a fetish is worth looking at (if not here). In what you were quoting above I was using the term very broadly, to include things like my penchant for pocketsquares and a crisp shirt, which aren't (arguably) the same as only being turned on by say rubber or extreme footwear or whatever.

I was also using the term broadly, purposely setting the bar very low because that is what the researchers did in their definitions.