Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81%

[Pickman's model]

Given that some people are more likely to be the victims of crime - or specific crimes - it's right imo that that's recognised in the sentencing and in the message given to the public. Hate crime doesn't tend to start with murder, it builds from treating people as "other".

you could argue that the great majority of crime against individuals as opposed to corporations builds from treating people as other, people it's ok to defraud, people it's ok to rob, people it's ok to assault etc

 

[Sasaferrato]

It isn't just 'a tick on a spreadsheet', although that gives away your attitude rather more than you probably intended. And, given the age of the alleged killers, the maximum sentence isn't likely - even David Carrick didn't get the maximum sentence.

• sentencers should first determine the appropriate sentence, leaving aside the element of aggravation related to race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity but taking into account all other aggravating or mitigating factors;
• the sentence should then be increased to take account of the aggravation related to race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity;
• the increase may mean that a more onerous penalty of the same type is appropriate, or that the threshold for a more severe type of sentence is passed;
• the sentencer must state in open court that the offence was aggravated by reason of race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity;
• the sentencer should state what the sentence would have been without that element of aggravation.

The sentence is going to be life, a hate exacerbation of the crime would possibly mean a longer pre-parole tariff.

Any way up, this is utterly dreadful. The perpetrators arrived at the scene armed, so harm was always intended. Or perhaps, as Mrs Sas suggested, they always carry a knife.

The way the world is going, I'm glad I'm not just starting out in life.

 

[Cloo]

I have historically been chary of directly blaming TERF/GC discourse for homicide of trans people simply as I felt it seemed much more likely it was just good old misogyny/homophobia of men angry at 'a man pretending to be a woman' and such perpetrators are not all that likely to be reading radical feminist critiques of transgendered identity. There's every chance I was wrong to think so, but I'll hold my hands up to it.

But I think this killing in particular a sign of a sea change where people feel more able to do this, which is obvious horrific in a new way.

 

[dylanredefined]

It isn't just 'a tick on a spreadsheet', although that gives away your attitude rather more than you probably intended. And, given the age of the alleged killers, the maximum sentence isn't likely - even David Carrick didn't get the maximum sentence.

• sentencers should first determine the appropriate sentence, leaving aside the element of aggravation related to race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity but taking into account all other aggravating or mitigating factors;
• the sentence should then be increased to take account of the aggravation related to race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity;
• the increase may mean that a more onerous penalty of the same type is appropriate, or that the threshold for a more severe type of sentence is passed;
• the sentencer must state in open court that the offence was aggravated by reason of race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity;

• the sentencer should state what the sentence would have been without that element of aggravation.

You misunderstand me labelling it a hate crime does nothing unfortunately when its murder as they are a getting life sentance adding a few years at best and as 15yr olds can probably be rehabilated
Any lesser crime than that absolutely
agree with it adding more to the sentance.

 

[BusLanes]

What always shocks me in recent times is just how often British newspapers talk about trans issues. I know we have a slightly weird news market with lots of national papers that are openly politically aligned but whenever I see reports like below, well it makes me think there's a coordinated campaign.

 

[Dystopiary]

you could argue that the great majority of crime against individuals as opposed to corporations builds from treating people as other, people it's ok to defraud, people it's ok to rob, people it's ok to assault etc

Absolutely. But under the current system, the ruling classes are never going to be persuaded that class is a factor, since class oppression underpins its entire raison d'être.

 

[Pickman's model]

Absolutely. But under the current system, the ruling classes are never going to be persuaded that class is a factor, since class oppression underpins its entire raison d'être.

i disagree - they know class is a factor. but they'll never admit it.

 

[Dystopiary]

i disagree - they know class is a factor. but they'll never admit it.

Ok, I should have specified - persuaded to act on it being a factor. Anyway, for another thread I reckon, just wanted to add some thoughts about recognition of hate crime.

 

[elbows]

But I think this killing in particular a sign of a sea change where people feel more able to do this, which is obvious horrific in a new way.

I dont feel like I really know very much at all about the circumstances of this killing yet.

What seems clear is that people tend to view events in particular contexts. And the way a whole load of trans issues have become politicised in an ugly polar way, used as dog whistles by shits and the right wing media, and have risen up the news agenda more broadly is going to have an impact on how people frame this murder. People should be upset about it, they should struggle and press for change, and they are not wrong to worry about the impact the current level of public discourse about these things has. This is a tragic opportunity to reflect on those things and to share thoughts about these themes.

All the same, my above stance doesnt actually fill in any gaps about the nature of this killing. eg when I get upset about the current state of this world, I also get upset about a whole host of youth violence and knife crime issues, shit priorities, youth services austerity impacts, failures to intervene usefully and earlier in the stories of peoples lives going wrong, etc etc. And I dont honestly know which of these and other issues are meaningful factors in this particular case, not at this stage.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I would like to think/hope that all posters in the community would be horrified and saddened by the murder of this young trans girl. I’m guessing some avoid the discussion because of old wounds and/or not wanting to ignite the wider debate, which has proved damaging to the community.

 

[elbows]

Also engagement with all threads in the politics subforums has probably declined more broadly over a long period. Some of that, for some people, is down to what happened in previous discussions about this topic, but there are other reasons too.

 

[elbows]

having said that, i did ask somewhere on here - must be a few years ago now - whether people peddling the old bullshit about black men being rapists or gay men being child molesters would be tolerated like people peddling the more recent bullshit about trans people being rapists and / or child molesters.

and i (and others who also challenged transphobia) were the ones told to shut up.

choices seemed to be to carry on and get slung out, walk away (as i'm aware that a number of trans urbanites, along with some urbanites who as far as i know aren't trans but were supportive did), or put a couple of threads on ignore and stay on the 99 or so percent of urban that wasn't this. i chose option C.

Thats a very understandable appraisal of what happened here. However if I try really hard I can get more out of it than that.

I'm not going to claim there were any great victories that left everyone (or one 'side') feeling much better about the situation and the nature of the discourse. But I think I can identify a bunch of smaller victories or things that occasionally started to resemble progress.

There were many years where the entire subject was treated as a joke, or as something where most would claim a huge degree of ignorance. Those days are long gone.

As that era faded away (good riddance!) things got more complicated as people got a clue at different speeds. Those who didnt get the memo stumbled around and made facile fools of themselves for quite some time, and some remain in that category but at least learned that they would feel the heat if they carried on in their old style.

Then we got into the era where people got into far more detail but the modern politics of the matter started to emerge overtly. There were some very long threads which featured some very extreme, dehumanising attitudes that were shocking and trampled on all sorts of people, feelings, concepts. The failure to find a somewhat coherent consensus, to agree upon a common set of values, or at least be able to set out a reasonable set of common ground starting points, and limits, probably shocked people and left a lot of ill feeling and permanently eroded sense of trust and community and of being on the 'same side' in terms of political struggles and human rights.

There has been no resolution to that last phase, but at a minimum I might claim that the forum was not utterly surrendered to transphobes. They didnt get to silence their opponents while remaining highly vocal themselves, attempts to do so failed, and ultimately they were largely forced into silence on these issues themselves. So far, despite a lot of noise and opportunism, regressive forces did not manage to get broader society or individual communities within it to have their contemporary values congeal around any variation of an anti-trans stance. On the rare occasions since where the discussion about this subject comes alive again, they sometimes gain momentum, but then people speak up against that shit and the momentum swings the other way, until an uneasy silence returns again. A few people who might be easier to define as shit-stirring trolls have also found it less easy to exploit these themes for their own entertainment in recent years, although I do not rule out the prospect that they will sporadically emerge again.

 

[hitmouse]

I have historically been chary of directly blaming TERF/GC discourse for homicide of trans people simply as I felt it seemed much more likely it was just good old misogyny/homophobia of men angry at 'a man pretending to be a woman' and such perpetrators are not all that likely to be reading radical feminist critiques of transgendered identity. There's every chance I was wrong to think so, but I'll hold my hands up to it.

But I think this killing in particular a sign of a sea change where people feel more able to do this, which is obvious horrific in a new way.

Been thinking about it, it's tricky because I'd be very surprised if it turns out that there's any direct traceable link between TERF/GC ideology and this killing, but also the GC crowd absolutely have played a role in contributing to and reinforcing the general hateful atmosphere. I think perhaps the fairest way to phrase it would be something like that Judith Butler article that everyone got angry at without reading, that GCs cannot make a meaningful contribution to fighting against this form of bigotry until they break with their GC beliefs? Maybe that's excessively mealy-mouthed, I dunno.

 

[Cloo]

Been thinking about it, it's tricky because I'd be very surprised if it turns out that there's any direct traceable link between TERF/GC ideology and this killing, but also the GC crowd absolutely have played a role in contributing to and reinforcing the general hateful atmosphere. I think perhaps the fairest way to phrase it would be something like that Judith Butler article that everyone got angry at without reading, that GCs cannot make a meaningful contribution to fighting against this form of bigotry until they break with their GC beliefs? Maybe that's excessively mealy-mouthed, I dunno.

I guess there's just a whole sense of 'hostile environment' now, from all the articles mentioned above, to our government picking a fight with Scotland because of bullshit misinformation about what a GRC could or couldn't enable (eg it could allow correct identification on a death certificate, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to what loo a trans woman can use) . And all this against less than 1% of the population. Which can't help.

 

[hitmouse]

I guess there's just a whole sense of 'hostile environment' now, from all the articles mentioned above, to our government picking a fight with Scotland because of bullshit misinformation about what a GRC could or couldn't enable (eg it could allow correct identification on a death certificate, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to what loo a trans woman can use) . And all this against less than 1% of the population. Which can't help.

Yep, fully agreed on that. I suppose I'm just trying to think through the balance of the GC/TERF crowd being a noisy, but ultimately small and not particularly influential, part of that environment. So I don't think there's much that they can be directly blamed for, but also their hands certainly aren't clean in all this either, if that makes sense?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I have historically been chary of directly blaming TERF/GC discourse for homicide of trans people simply as I felt it seemed much more likely it was just good old misogyny/homophobia of men angry at 'a man pretending to be a woman' and such perpetrators are not all that likely to be reading radical feminist critiques of transgendered identity. There's every chance I was wrong to think so, but I'll hold my hands up to it.

But I think this killing in particular a sign of a sea change where people feel more able to do this, which is obvious horrific in a new way.

I haven't got figures / quotes to hand, but fairly sure that there have been studies in the past showing matching trends in racist / homophobic comments and policies by politicians / media and increases in street level discrimination from low level to violent assaults. (homophobia round section 28, racism round certain elements of the campaigning round brexit, for example)

Obviously 'reported crime' figures are not always the true picture. minority groups may be reluctant to come forward and report crimes if they think the police will be indifferent or hostile. I'm old enough to remember a time when many gay men would tend not to report a 'queer bashing' or if it did come to police attention (for example if they ended up in hospital), they would not want to 'out' themselves to the police (and if did get to court, the 'homosexual panic' defence would often get a 'not guilty' or a lighter sentence) but also willingness of police to recognise / log the possibility of 'hate crime' motives rather than to dismiss them.

Yes, I very much doubt that all people who attack trans people have read radical feminist critiques, but they will have heard politicians or watched telly news or read the tabloids.

There has been no resolution to that last phase, but at a minimum I might claim that the forum was not utterly surrendered to transphobes. They didnt get to silence their opponents, attempts to do so failed, and they were largely forced into silence on these issues themselves

I'm not saying it was 'utterly surrendered' but I'm aware that a number of trans posters, and (as far as i know, cis) posters who defended them, have stopped coming here (a few have come back, many haven't, which is 'silencing' them as far as urban is concerned) and some trans posters who are still here have said that they feel less safe and comfortable here than they used to.

and, while i've put some threads on ignore in the interests of my blood pressure, i've not really noticed a 'silence' from 'gender critical' people, including a recent incursion on to the long running LGBT thread on k+s that has already been mentioned on this thread.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I have a potential dilemma coming up at work where the washing/changing arrangements of a MTF trans worker need to be considered. The options are: they change with the men as they’re pre-op which could be considered transphobic. Give them their own facilities away from everyone else which could be considered transphobic. Or give them access to the female facilities who are mostly immigrant cleaners from other cultures who may have conservative outlooks or religious beliefs and object to it which could also be transphobic.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I have a potential dilemma coming up at work where the washing/changing arrangements of a MTF trans worker need to be considered. The options are: they change with the men as they’re pre-op which could be considered transphobic. Give them their own facilities away from everyone else which could be considered transphobic. Or give them access to the female facilities who are mostly immigrant cleaners from other cultures who may have conservative outlooks or religious beliefs and object to it which could also be transphobic.

Have you asked them what they would like?

 

[elbows]

I'm not saying it was 'utterly surrendered' but I'm aware that a number of trans posters, and (as far as i know, cis) posters who defended them, have stopped coming here (a few have come back, many haven't, which is 'silencing' them as far as urban is concerned) and some trans posters who are still here have said that they feel less safe and comfortable here than they used to.

Yes I wont deny that lots of damage was done and lots of people left. I was speaking more about what remained in the wake of that. For example how this thread has been when talking about the murder recently, where sincere people have been able to speak sensibly without crappy interjections and whataboutery or trolling so far.

I suspect I would have tried harder not to settle for anything less than a better resolution of the stuff years ago if it had not come at a time where the forum community was suffering from all sorts of other signs of entropy. For example the task of forum moderation is incredibly difficult if there are big gaps in the sort of 'common community values' that should partially underpin what decisions are expected from those who moderate, a lot of effort would be required to sort that out. And the shit hit the fan at a time where I'd say the whole moderation side of things had long been burnt out - the number of active moderators had dwindled to minimal levels and every event that required intervention was seen as a impossible burden, a further drain on the already depleted mental and emotional reserves of the moderating team. A path forwards in regards a new moderating stance to take, and probably new people with new reserves of energy for the task of moderation would probably have been required in order to hope to get anything other than an inadequate 'stop bothering us, stop arguing about this, stop tearing this place apart' response. Even then its unlikely some great settlement would have been reached, given the way this stuff has not been settled in broader society, but it might have left a slightly less nasty taste in peoples mouths if we'd had more opportunities to at least try.

and, while i've put some threads on ignore in the interests of my blood pressure, i've not really noticed a 'silence' from 'gender critical' people, including a recent incursion on to the long running LGBT thread on k+s that has already been mentioned on this thread.

Ah yes. Thats involved pretty much one of the only shit-stirrers left standing these days. I think the last few times that side gained any momentum here involved them kicking the shit off again. There were enough people in the other camp to end the crap reasonably quickly on all those occasions, unless I missed some other incidents. If I define this as progress, its only because I'm comparing it to what the situation was like some years ago, where the horror used to rage on for ages every time.

 

[SpookyFrank]

What always shocks me in recent times is just how often British newspapers talk about trans issues. I know we have a slightly weird news market with lots of national papers that are openly politically aligned but whenever I see reports like below, well it makes me think there's a coordinated campaign.


View attachment 363301

Hard to tell if it's a co-ordinated campaign or just a feedback loop.

But the people churning out this stuff know exactly what they're doing.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Have you asked them what they would like?

Obviously that would be the first course of action. I was just pointing out the potential minefield of it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Obviously that would be the first course of action. I was just pointing out the potential minefield of it.

Yeah, it's potentially tricky. Others will know more than me, and everyone will be different, but when we accommodated a transman in my martial arts group, he wanted to change separately. It's not necessarily a transphobic solution.

 

[Cloo]

Yep, fully agreed on that. I suppose I'm just trying to think through the balance of the GC/TERF crowd being a noisy, but ultimately small and not particularly influential, part of that environment. So I don't think there's much that they can be directly blamed for, but also their hands certainly aren't clean in all this either, if that makes sense?

They're definitely a small minority - the trouble is that the press and politicians use them respectively as a basis for front page stories and policy. I think it's important to understand that the vast majority of the public have very little involvement in the whole 'trans debate' but that polls clearly show most people are actually supportive of trans rights. I do think it's very sad trans people are - understandably - feeling very unsafe from the actions and words of such a small minority.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yeah, it's potentially tricky. Others will know more than me, and everyone will be different, but when we accommodated a transman in my martial arts group, he wanted to change separately. It's not necessarily a transphobic solution.

It will possibly go smoothly like that. I’m in cold sweats about it as an IR rep though given everyone is in the same union.

 

[hitmouse]

They're definitely a small minority - the trouble is that the press and politicians use them respectively as a basis for front page stories and policy. I think it's important to understand that the vast majority of the public have very little involvement in the whole 'trans debate' but that polls clearly show most people are actually supportive of trans rights. I do think it's very sad trans people are - understandably - feeling very unsafe from the actions and words of such a small minority.

For the sake of showing my working/influences, I've been thinking about this thread a bit in the last few days:

I have hundreds of men in my notifications celebrating the death of a young trans woman, thousands blaming TERFs for it angrily and many tens demanding the harshest possible punishments for the perpetrators who themselves may be only 15yo.

I don't know how to put this best but men need to understand that the vast majority of the problem is social, the vast majority of the violence perpetrated by men, & legitimised by a cultural environment that devalues our lives (and the women they blame for creating that culture)

TERFs are awful. They play their bit in radicalising society to destroy trans people, and directly doing harm themselves. I'm not disputing that.

I'm concerned by the ways ppl reach for easy solutions, for blame & further destruction rather than recognising their own culpability
No amount of pointing the finger at TERFs addresses the wider problem that trans women are disposable specifically because of a sexist culture that renders us abhorrent.

A sexist culture that TERFs play their part in but TERFs are such a tiny minority of what's going on here.

If you care about stopping these killings it's on all of us to create A DIFFERENT SOCIETY, one where male violence isn't just accepted as a natural part of life and where women and LGBT people aren't understood to be simply the natural victims of it.

We need to understand that children don't just murder people in a vacuum. That they've barely become independent in understanding the world themselves at that stage of life and play out violent dynamics they have been educated in by adults and authority figures in their lives.

Women, for example TERFs, are blamed because we live in a sexist society that places the responsibility of reproductive labour, care and education primarily on women.

The finger pointing is a symptom of the same sexist system that produces transphobia. I beg you to reconsider.

Why is it that I see news like this and feel wracked by guilt that nothing we've done so far has prevented this from happening but countless out there are looking to point the finger at a tiny minority of arsehole transphobe activists and entirely ignore our transphobic society?

We all have a part to play in changing this and in creating a society that does not allow this to happen again.

I beg you to make that your task not someone else's.

This is one of the problems with our conception of "hate crime" & the way it makes the problem into the mentality of individual criminals and the solution of finding people to punish (distancing ourselves from complicity in the communities that make trans lives disposable).
I don't doubt that we need to deter violent people from doing harm sometimes. But the problem of "hate" murders is the production of social death - legitimised through transphobia, misogyny, racism, ablism, homophobia, contempt for children's rights, and so on.
These aren't just perpetrators, these are cultures of violence that need addressing.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Nonsense. this is exactly what TERFs wanted and I've seen them celebrating on Twitter. We were rapidly heading towards acceptance for trans people a decade ago when i decided to transition. This whole hate movement, as we see it now, was booted up by the TERF/GC movement by influencing the media, flooding the discourse with fake information and straight up lies + providing the academic underpinning so that they may appear respectable; influencing bodies like the Charities Commission, The Equality and Human Rights Commission, founding any number of organisations/charities designed to water down or over turn good practice that had been long established, flooding schools with advice designed to isolate and cut off support for young trans people and to challenge anti bullying initiatives that were becoming common in primary schools a decade ago, trying to destroy Mermaids and Stonewall, two organisations that have been instrumental in improving conditions for trans people in the UK, creating the appalling LGB Alliance which only ever attacks trans people, attacking and forcing resignations of high profile trans women, influencing government - and we see now the prime minster repeating TERF dog whistles; joining up with the far right, particularly in the US. I will never forget and i will never be gaslighted into believing otherwise, i saw it all with my own eyes.

Most of those articles mentioned earlier, that appeared in the media were written by TERFs/GCs directly or inspired by previous articles that had been written by TERFs in the media. Have you seen the attacks that occur on any organisation or media that is anything less than utterly abhorrent to trans women? They're made potential trans allies scared to speak up. There are now so many fake facts and made up stats out there about trans people i don't think we'll be getting back to where we were for a couple of generations if at all.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

.

 

[ouirdeaux]

this is exactly what TERFs wanted and I've seen them celebrating on Twitter

Link?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Link?

www.twitter.com

Not going to post specific examples because it's all horrible and none of it should be signal-boosted.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

I have historically been chary of directly blaming TERF/GC discourse for homicide of trans people simply as I felt it seemed much more likely it was just good old misogyny/homophobia of men angry at 'a man pretending to be a woman' and such perpetrators are not all that likely to be reading radical feminist critiques of transgendered identity. There's every chance I was wrong to think so, but I'll hold my hands up to it.

But I think this killing in particular a sign of a sea change where people feel more able to do this, which is obvious horrific in a new way.

Transgender men also experience hate crime (although not homicide at the same rate as transgendered women )