Tory Leadership contest 2022

[redsquirrel]

It was Gordon Brown who gave the BoE independent control over monetary policy, not sure where Thatcher comes in.

What was Thatchers comment about New Labour?
Kabbes was 90% right when he said

The independence of the BOE is looked upon fondly by those who take the assumptions of neoliberalism to heart and thus view economics as being some kind of neutral, apolitical force of nature. They then believe that this force can be scientifically understood and directed.

The other 10% are those that understand exactly what economics is and how their position in the class war is advanced by 'independence' of central banks

What would you have done differently if you were the BoE MPC?

They've hit the 2% target for years until the latest energy crisis/war. The government could have changed the target if they wanted.

And you're the ideologically free one. Right.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You didn't answer my question on what you would have done differently?

They have public minutes of every meeting. Unlike our super "democratically accountable" government which is run by WhatsApp and secret meetings with donors.

Which do you prefer?

The lack of transparency of the UK government is a disgrace and needs to be challenged. Covid illustrated that very clearly - SAGE discussions were kept secret here in the UK, while their equivalents in other European countries had public minutes of every meeting. Ireland published the whole thing online.

That UK democracy has many very undemocratic elements (see also this current competition to become the new PM) is not an argument for anything other than that those undemocratic elements need challenging. Your solution seems to be that we should just give up on the aspiration of democratic accountability altogether.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It was Gordon Brown who gave the BoE independent control over monetary policy, not sure where Thatcher comes in.

What would you have done differently if you were the BoE MPC?

They've hit the 2% target for years until the latest energy crisis/war. The government could have changed the target if they wanted.

Offered the choice between 10% inflation with a 10% pay rise or 2% inflation with a 1% pay rise, I'll take the former, thanks. Everyone should. Low inflation isn't a good in and of itself. Over the past couple of decades, it has coincided with a steady erosion of wages.

 

[redsquirrel]

Offered the choice between 10% inflation with a 10% pay rise or 2% inflation with a 1% pay rise, I'll take the former, thanks. Everyone should. Low inflation isn't a good in and of itself. Over the past couple of decades, it has coincided with a steady erosion of wages.

Sorry LBJ you must be wrong, after all a member of the MPC has told us that things have been working for the last two decades

“The government very clearly does not set the direction of travel for monetary policy, that is set by the MPC,” he said. “That is fundamental to the UK framework and the credibility of the framework, and it has served the UK well for the past 25 years. The foundations of the UK monetary policy framework, I think, are really important and best left untouched.”

That increased inequality and worsening condition of workers has served the UK well

 

[billy_bob]

Oh god, I want Truss to win it now. She's like Boris Johnson without the charisma. It's going to be a fucking disaster. Bring it on!

 

[killer b]

They're an agricultural supplies firm. Or a polling company. I'll let you have a think about it and see if you can work out which one.

I was wondering how seriously you should take a poll conducted by a polling company no-one has heard of with 1200 followers on twitter really.

 

[marty21]

Shame, if just four that supported Truss, had backed Mordaunt, they would have both been on 109, which would have been funny.

They'd have had to arm wrestle for the right to go forward (sure I saw it in the Tory rules) I think the Mordaunt would have edged that .

 

[Louis MacNeice]

You didn't answer my question on what you would have done differently?

They have public minutes of every meeting. Unlike our super "democratically accountable" government which is run by WhatsApp and secret meetings with donors.

Which do you prefer?

You didn't ask me any questions?

You think public minutes equal 100% transparency?

You think I said our government is actually democratically accountable?

I prefer none of the above.

How is it going with your facts not ideology fantasy?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Cat Fan]

Well I think we're broadly agreed that the UK government is terrible in terms of transparency. My point is taking interest rates back into government control would mean less transparency not more based on how things look today.

Then your other point on earnings vs interest rates I have more sympathy for, but if we look at countries that have tried to defy the economic norms it hasn't tended to give all the workers above inflationary pay rises.

I'm thinking Argentina, Venezuela and Turkey. Generally it's been a disaster and triggered some kind of inflationary doom spiral.

I would say it's not the bank's fault that pay in the UK hasn't been keeping up with inflation, that's just because the balance of economic power is gradually shifting to fossil fuel rich economies and Asia. We're not a global mega empire anymore.

 

[redsquirrel]

"Economic norms" - says it all

 

[Cat Fan]

You didn't ask me any questions?

You think public minutes equal 100% transparency?

You think I said our government is actually democratically accountable?

I prefer none of the above.

How is it going with your facts not ideology fantasy?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

I asked what you would change to make the BoE more accountable (or work better). It's a fair question, no?

That's fine if you don't want to put it back under control of the government, but that's what others on this thread have been saying.

Not sure what you mean by "none of the above".

Easy for you to criticise without proposing any actual alternative.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I would say it's not the bank's fault that pay in the UK hasn't been keeping up with inflation, that's just because the balance of economic power is gradually shifting to fossil fuel rich economies and Asia. We're not a global mega empire anymore.

This is patently not true. Wages not keeping up with inflation has occurred during a period of steady economic growth. Wages as a proportion of GDP have gone down, while profits - making money from owning stuff rather than doing things - have gone up.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I was wondering how seriously you should take a poll conducted by a polling company no-one has heard of with 1200 followers on twitter really.

I guess I'm just really into the sort of edgy, niche polls nobody else has heard of.

 

[Cat Fan]

This is patently not true. Wages not keeping up with inflation has occurred during a period of steady economic growth. Wages as a proportion of GDP have gone down, while profits - making money from owning stuff rather than doing things - have gone up.

And how would raising interest rates help with this problem? It's a global trend thar inequality has been accelerating, it's not exclusive to the UK.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And how would raising interest rates help with this problem? It's a global trend thar inequality has been accelerating, it's not exclusive to the UK.

Who said anything about raising interest rates? (That's the thing they do to squash inflation, btw - I think you've got this stuff confused. In 2008, interest rates were slashed in order to avoid deflation.)

One thing they could have done, as a for instance, is to give the quantitative easing money directly to us rather than using it to bail out the failed banks. But no, the system that has been slowly immiserating us needed to be saved.

 

[killer b]

I guess I'm just really into the sort of edgy, niche polls nobody else has heard of.

Either that or you've been suckered by some clickbait

 

[Cat Fan]

Who said anything about raising interest rates? (That's the thing they do to squash inflation, btw - I think you've got this stuff confused. In 2008, interest rates were slashed in order to avoid deflation.)

One thing they could have done is to give the quantitative easing money directly to us rather than using it to bail out the failed banks. But no, the system that has been slowly immiserating us needed to be saved.

It may be you who is confused, slashing interest rates has been standard bank policy in times of recession. You don't think they've been doing a good job so I assumed you wanted them to keep interest rates high instead.

If your issue with the bank of England is that QE went to banks rather than individuals fine, but you should know that it wasn't a bank decision it was a political decision by the government of the day!

The issue in question is whether the BoE should have independence in setting interest rates and I still haven't had a convincing argument why not.

 

[ska invita]

I was a bit worried by Mordaunt but these two have no hope.

Another scrap of a pleasure in life would be to see Starmer losing to Truss....I hope he chokes on it

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It may be you who is confused, slashing interest rates has been standard bank policy in times of recession. You don't think they've been doing a good job so I assumed you wanted them to keep interest rates high instead.

Well don't assume things like that. I didn't say it, so don't assume I think it.

I'd advise you to read the replies you're getting here more carefully because you don't get where any of us are coming from on this issue.

One thing I'd say to point you in the right direction is that I agree very strongly with Marx that there is no such thing as economics per se. There is only and always political economy.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

"Economic norms" - says it all

wasn't he the chancellor when the shit hit the fan during john major's time?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Either that or you've been suckered by some clickbait

In which case you'd expect other polls to show the opposite, with Truss miles ahead of Starmer...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

wasn't he the chancellor when the shit hit the fan during john major's time?

Short-lived Viz character with mad hair.

 

[spitfire]

Find out.

Loosely linked to Fuck Around PLC.

 

[Cat Fan]

Well don't assume things like that. I didn't say it, so don't assume I think it.

I'd advise you to read the replies you're getting here more carefully because you don't get where any of us are coming from on this issue.

One thing I'd say to point you in the right direction is that I agree very strongly with Marx that there is no such thing as economics per se. There is only and always political economy.

Ah ok, the whole thing started when we were discussing Liz Truss's plan to interfere in the BoE's independence, which I don't think is a fabulous idea.

The pros and cons of Marxism is something else entirely and I don't claim to be an expert so I'll sign off here.

 

[kabbes]

The point is that the BoE is not “independent” of the state. It is part of the state. The pretence that it is independent is merely embedding certain assumptions regarding economics as being beyond question.

There is no argument being made about the value of “independent” monetary policy that could not equally be made about “independent” fiscal policy. Would you favour an independent body setting tax rates? How about one to determine what government spends its money on?

 

[brogdale]

I know I'm showing my age and all that, but this really made me splutter the old Bishop's Finger!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ah ok, the whole thing started when we were discussing Liz Truss's plan to interfere in the BoE's independence, which I don't think is a fabulous idea.

The pros and cons of Marxism is something else entirely and I don't claim to be an expert so I'll sign off here.

You don't have to be an expert on Marxism to get the idea behind political economy. It's simply the idea that you cannot separate an economic system from the powers that own and control it - those powers and the means they use are the system.

 

[Pickman's model]

The lack of transparency of the UK government is a disgrace and needs to be challenged. Covid illustrated that very clearly - SAGE discussions were kept secret here in the UK, while their equivalents in other European countries had public minutes of every meeting. Ireland published the whole thing online.

That UK democracy has many very undemocratic elements (see also this current competition to become the new PM) is not an argument for anything other than that those undemocratic elements need challenging. Your solution seems to be that we should just give up on the aspiration of democratic accountability altogether.

It's really strange in light of what you say that there's loads of minutes of sage meetings on the Internet, just search sage meeting minutes

 

[brogdale]

From twitter, obvs, but really? Is hitting the ground a good thing?