[Thu 8th Mar 2012] 'The Failure of Capitalist Production', Prof. Andrew Kliman & Prof.... (S3 7RA)

[butchersapron]

Harvey

He doesn't offer any solutions full stop - he offers a few suggestions as to what might happen. Not one for solutions

 

[revol68]

Savings are global. They go to china.


Yes

Okay but surely China needs the maintenance of consumerism in the West to continue growing, either that or develop and internal market but that would require rising wages and so undercutting it's position as the sweatshop of the world?

Where next after China and India, Africa?

The reproduction stuff is interesting because does privatisation of education, health and cleaning actually solve the problem, is it not almost a false type of growth, more a case of wealth transference than production?

 

[revol68]

He doesn't offer any solutions full stop - he offers a few suggestions as to what might happen. Not one for solutions

yeah, he is at great pains to point out that there can be no solution, just temporal or spatial fixes, a kind of kicking the can further down the road.

 

[Das Uberdog]

He doesn't offer any solutions full stop - he offers a few suggestions as to what might happen. Not one for solutions

he's uncritical to the point of supportive of a lot of social-democratic style campaigns

 

[revol68]

he's uncritical to the point of supportive of a lot of social-democratic style campaigns

yes but that doesn't make his a keynesian or see them as a solution to the inherent crisis of capitalism, quite the contrary he sees these things as being a crisis for capitalism but one that is felt on capitals side rather than labours.

 

[butchersapron]

Okay but surely China needs the maintenance of consumerism in the West to continue growing, either that or develop and internal market but that would require rising wages and so undercutting it's position as the sweatshop of the world?

Where next after China and India, Africa?

The reproduction stuff is interesting because does privatisation of education, health and cleaning actually solve the problem, is it not almost a false type of growth, more a case of wealth transference than production?

It does, and markets produce markets. There is/will be rising wages in china. There will be an internal market.

No it doesn't it's - an internal border, but the process produces more markets out of non-market areas. There is no end.

 

[butchersapron]

he's uncritical to the point of supportive of a lot of social-democratic style campaigns

You talking about the logic of his books or his personal behaviour?

 

[butchersapron]

he's uncritical to the point of supportive of a lot of social-democratic style campaigns

Who here isn't?

 

[Das Uberdog]

i'm talking about his broader political characteristics, what i meant by his 'political tradition' - but i accept revols response to that

 

[revol68]

It does, and markets produce markets. There is/will be rising wages in china. There will be an internal market.

No it doesn't it's - an internal border, but the process produces more markets out of non-market areas. There is no end.

Right but doesn't this reach a point where these ever spiraling markets within markets are simply circulating the same value, as real growth declines? And didn't privitisation and the reduction of the social wage play into the underconsumption of western labour that needed bridged by credit?

 

[Das Uberdog]

Who here isn't?

it's not so much the support as the way the campaigns are sometimes referenced at the end of a talk or a speech on his theories, at least gives the impression of a linkage

 

[Das Uberdog]

Right but doesn't this reach a point where these ever spiraling markets within markets are simply circulating the same value, as real growth declines? And didn't privitisation and the reduction of the social wage play into the underconsumption of western labour that needed bridged by credit?

that's the point at which technology and production needs to be revolutionised, labour costs need to be cut, or sometimes something drastically bad and damaging has to happen to forcibly break open investments (war, natural disaster, etc)... i guess the point is you can never account for stasis in these markets, the playing field always shifts with new events, population growth, etc etc.

 

[Das Uberdog]

theoretically that could happen, i mean, but in practice you rarely get that balance

 

[butchersapron]

Right but doesn't this reach a point where these ever spiraling markets within markets are simply circulating the same value, as real growth declines? And didn't privitisation and the reduction of the social wage play into the underconsumption of western labour that needed bridged by credit?

I'd argue those markets have never yet even held hands, and yes that's the argument (aside from real growth in SEA). That's them boys in a nutshell.

(So they go elsewhere. 2% on millions of stuff you can't move and is site specific -yeah, you're happy to get 2%)

 

[revol68]

that's the point at which technology and production needs to be revolutionised, labour costs need to be cut, or sometimes something drastically bad and damaging has to happen to forcibly break open investments (war, natural disaster, etc)... i guess the point is you can never account for stasis in these markets, the playing field always shifts with new events, population growth, etc etc.

war yeah, but stuff like cutting labour costs through either directly disciplining labour or automation surely simply exasperate the problem of underconsumption, not to mention the social problems of increasing unemployment.

 

[revol68]

I'd argue those markets have never yet even held hands, and yes that's the argument (aside from real growth in SEA). That's them boys in a nutshell.

(So they go elsewhere. 2% on millions of stuff you can't move and is site specific -yeah, you're happy to get 2%)

So capitalism continues but real growth drops off until war, natural disaster, or just the impoverishment of large swathes of previously developed areas destroys enough value to set it in motion again.

Basically the only limit is the barbarism the vast majority of the world is willing to put up with?

I don't get what you mean by "those markets have never yet even held hands?

 

[butchersapron]

The domestic economy and the financial market have only met though pension funds. The real terror is to come.

Real growth is only dropping off - 'we're' still historically attractive - don't have to pay to build roads, educate kids, meet the fecking wife

 

[revol68]

yeah but it's all down hill from here, unless we fancy going through the delights of another world war.

I do wonder about the lack of pushing the green economy, though I suppose the grip of neo liberalist ideology is still too tight, not to mention the influence of big oil and gas, for this path to be explored.

 

[Das Uberdog]

yeah but it's all down hill from here, unless we fancy going through the delights of another world war.

I do wonder about the lack of pushing the green economy, though I suppose the grip of neo liberalist ideology is still too tight, not to mention the influence of big oil and gas, for this path to be explored.

i think the green economy really is an example of a non-value creating avenue though, economically speaking. the level of decentralization involved would mean a redistribution of funds downwards, in all likelihood - but the current potentialities of power production in particular just don't compare with the potentialities of present non-renewable technology and in most cases, green goods and services would also mean general price rises and less fluid capital movements... in terms of capitalism as a whole, i don't think it would spare them.

ETA in the short term it would also most likely mean increases in the cost of living for the poor, too

 

[revol68]

I was thinking of mass investment in the green economy as a pseudo Keynesian means of job creation and would it be non value creating since things like fossil fuels aren't that productive in the Marxist sense, infact surely high fuel costs acts as a drag on production? Basically are the energy companies modern day aristocrats, blocking development with their shadow over the state?

 

[Jean-Luc]

This is beginning to get confusing. So, it's Harvey the underconsumptionist and Kliman the anti-underconsumptionist. In any event, the person introducing him this evening at Bookmarks in London, Joseph Choonara of the SWP, is an underconsumptionist leftwing Keynesian who wants to tax the rich to give to the workers as the way out of the crisis. Just the sort of response Kliman criticises and says won't work and would in fact make things worse. Could be an interesting meeting.

 

[butchersapron]

I was thinking of mass investment in the green economy as a pseudo Keynesian means of job creation and would it be non value creating since things like fossil fuels aren't that productive in the Marxist sense, infact surely high fuel costs acts as a drag on production? Basically are the energy companies modern day aristocrats, blocking development with their shadow over the state?

There's an argument to seeing them (the green keynsians) in the same way as things like co-ops - once they reach a certain size/stage then they have to play the same game or die. Then there's the one that recognises that the state sometimes needs to impose this stuff for the good of the players. I think both are true.

 

[butchersapron]

This is beginning to get confusing. So, it's Harvey the underconsumptionist and Kliman the anti-underconsumptionist. In any event, the person introducing him this evening at Bookmarks in London, Joseph Choonara of the SWP, is an underconsumptionist leftwing Keynesian who wants to tax the rich to give to the workers as the way out of the crisis. Just the sort of response Kliman criticises and says won't work and would in fact make things worse. Could be an interesting meeting.

I didn't know JC was an out and out undercomsumptionist - the swp line is normally the Harman (mis)reading of Brenner's overproduction approach.

 

[Jean-Luc]

I didn't know JC was an out and out undercomsumptionist - the swp line is normally the Harman (mis)reading of Brenner's overproduction approach.

That may be what they say amongst themselves but it's not what they say to ordinary workers (I think the SWP is involved in this):

At its face value this means that the banks and big business are still going to exist and are to be taxed to provide more jobs, fully funded public services, cheap transport, affordable housing and free education and that this will end the crisis. In other words, that increased popular consumption is the way out of the crisis, a classic left Keynesian approach. I agree with Kliman that, as capitalism is driven by profits and as the increased consumption would be at the expense of profits, this would make things worse by actually prolonging the crisis.

Here is Kliman criticising this sort of approach and agitation.

 

[butchersapron]

The SWP are not really involved in this. Are the SPGB?

I don't see why that banal poster statement means any of the things you say, it certainly doesn't mean that JC is an underconsumptionist. It's just bog-standard political rhetoric designed to attract people on a pretty low common denominator. I'm sure Kliman criticises this approach - but so what?

 

[Jean-Luc]

Did anyone go to this or one of his other meetings? If so, what did he have to say?

 

[krink]

i'm going to one tomorrow. will post something here probs monday

 

[krink]

well, I'm glad I'm not a marxist.

 

[love detective]

apparently the real reason he's in the UK is to take part in Ashley Banjo's secret street crew, he'll be appearing with an all star TSSI troupe in an attempt to steal a march on arch TSSI critic David Laibman's move away from economics and into the application of fingerstyle guitar to early 20th century ragtime music