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third position fascism

frogwoman

No amount of cajolery...
Following on from the 'Anelka's quenelle' thread, how much of a problem is it really and how dangerous is it to anticapitalist movements and struggles? Why has it been successful and are any of the leading proponents of it involved in the more 'traditional' extreme right? I don't know much about who is behind it but I thought this could be the thread for this more general discussion.
 
Umm good question. I think it adopts positions traditionally held by the left (anti-imperialism, opposition to us foreign policy etc) to advance a far right/racist agenda, so for example they might be involved in opposition to NATO etc.
 
Umm good question. I think it adopts positions traditionally held by the left (anti-imperialism, opposition to us foreign policy etc) to advance a far right/racist agenda, so for example they might be involved in opposition to NATO etc.
So it's a breakaway group of the far right who happen to also agree with some far left ideas? Hasn't there always been quite a lot of overlap between the far right and far left anyway?

Edit: see Liam O answered part of that
 
So it's a breakaway group of the far right who happen to also agree with some far left ideas? Hasn't there always been quite a lot of overlap between the far right and far left anyway?

Edit: see Liam O answered part of that

With some groups yes.
 
Early 80's NF split into two factions. One traditional, british nationalist/racist and the other (funded by Ghadaffi) Third Positionist. Lots of left-wing rheotoric and quoting from Ghaddafi's Green Book.
Ah yes, the political soldier v. flag split. Griffin v Tyndall and all that.
 
Ambiguity, indeed, is one of CPI’s most important features, specially if we look at the cultural background they want to show. More than once, CPI organized conferences and events about personalities like Che Guevara, Jack Kerouac, and Rino Gaetano (a no-doubts left-wing Italian singer), and Peppino Impastato (who struggled against the mafia, also a militant of the communist party Democrazia Proletaria).

CPI’s youth movement, called Blocco Studentesco, was established in 2006. Its logo – a lightning inside a circle – was taken from Oswald Mosley’s “British Union of Fascists”, but also hints at symbols used by left-wing squatting movements. Members of Blocco Studentesco took part to urban fighting which occurred in november 2008 in Piazza Navona, Rome, during the protests of students and teachers against Minister Gelmini’s reform of School and University. Some CP militants began by beating other very young students with their belts – a practice they proudly call “cinghiamattanza”, which means more or less “mayhem by the belts”. The fight which followed ended with the destruction of a bar and the intervention of Police officers – some of whom were later seen while speaking confidentially with the young leader of CP students.
 
Essentially both want minimal Government?

Edit: actually not that at all. Just read this off wiki on far right beliefs:

Another question is the what the label "right" implies when applied to the extreme right, given that many parties labelled as right-wing extremist tended to advance neo-liberal and free market agendas as late as the 1980s but can now advocate economic policies more traditionally associated with the left, such as anti-globalisation, nationalisation and protectionism. One approach, drawing on the writings of Norberto Bobbio, argues that attitudes towards equality are what distinguish between left and right and therefore allow these parties to be positioned on the right of the political spectrum.
 
Below is a propaganda video from casapound, Speaking to a Italian comrade in regards to Casapound, she explained that Casapound and their ilk have it the right way around, that on the left, you are expected to be somewhat up to speed politically from the start, that its meeting after meeting and demo after demo before you get an invite from comrades for dinner or a drink...or the walking club. What CasaPound do is put on free cinemas for young people, hip-hop nights, sports clubs, the politics comes quite slowly,slowly, and by the time you fully realize you're a fascist it doesnt matter because now, so are all your friends, all your activities, pretty much all your life.


Now the same person who was telling me this, was saying, and butchersapron may be able to help with specifics here, that despite all the anti-state and revolutionary trappings of CP, that if you follow the paper trail alot of their funding comes via mainstream rightwing parties and politicians.
 
So it's a breakaway group of the far right who happen to also agree with some far left ideas? Hasn't there always been quite a lot of overlap between the far right and far left anyway?


national socialism...evolving from the german workers party
 
Early 80's NF split into two factions. One traditional, british nationalist/racist and the other (funded by Ghadaffi) Third Positionist. Lots of left-wing rheotoric and quoting from Ghaddafi's Green Book.

You're thinking of "International Third Position (sole trader: P. Harrington)", rather than third position fascism, which went a bit wider than Harrington's mob.
 
So it's a breakaway group of the far right who happen to also agree with some far left ideas? Hasn't there always been quite a lot of overlap between the far right and far left anyway?

Sort of, although some of the ideas used in third positionism (stuff like distributism/distributionism, for example) are quite well-worn (i.e. "between the wars"-ish), and aren't so much "far left" as hangovers from what we might call "simpler times" ideologically. Third positionism does have plenty of far right tropes that it clings to which rather make the claims to be "beyond left and right" seem a bit hollow, though - a usual third position policy trope is to work alongside politically-similar persons of other "races" and ethnicities in order to achieve a version of ethnic segregation. Not the sort of thing you usually see the far left advocating.
 
theres a myriad. In southern europe for example race has never been that big an issue..at least pre recent immigration . Fascism tends to end up identified with traditional values, the church etc . Others are staubchly secular, others fucking Odinists and pagans .

what it unerringly tends to boil down to in all cases though is the politics of hate, and using those emotions to smash worker solidarity . For the benefit of moneyed and controlling elites and interests.
 
Sort of, although some of the ideas used in third positionism (stuff like distributism/distributionism, for example) are quite well-worn (i.e. "between the wars"-ish), and aren't so much "far left" as hangovers from what we might call "simpler times" ideologically. Third positionism does have plenty of far right tropes that it clings to which rather make the claims to be "beyond left and right" seem a bit hollow, though - a usual third position policy trope is to work alongside politically-similar persons of other "races" and ethnicities in order to achieve a version of ethnic segregation. Not the sort of thing you usually see the far left advocating.

I think that what was being said in the other thread was that it's increasingly easy for the fash to appear far left, through hiding their views and only emphasizing the economic elements of them - and that because of the acceptability of certain things like 'banker' theories and the involvement of people like john Rees, dieudonne etc initially on the far left, but now closer to thfe hard right) (but able to look like they're not because of their 'anti-imperialist' credentials) it's easier for them to appear that way? butchersapron etc?
 
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I'm reading a book on Peron and the Nazis that quotes him using the term 3rd position in the 1940s. Does anyone know if there is a connection between Peron and the terms more recent use by the far right, or is this a bit of a coincidence?
 
You're thinking of "International Third Position (sole trader: P. Harrington)", rather than third position fascism, which went a bit wider than Harrington's mob.

Hi VP- correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the ITP the Nick Griffin/Derek Holland split off from the Official NF, with Harrington founding Third Way? Agree that Third Positionism goes further than ITP/Third Way.

Talking of Third Positionist stuff, I guess you could say it goes back as far as the 70's in Italy, with Roberto Fiore's Terza Persizione mob, whose "military" wing are widely credited/blamed for the 1980 Bologna train station bombing. Fiore of course was a key influence on the Griffin/Holland/Harrington wing of the NF once he'd escaped from Italy in the very early 80's.
 
Also worth taking a look at T. ro. y S.out.th.gate (leave out the dots, id say he is the kind of guy who googles himself all the time, "the only worse thing than being talked about" and all that).
But the geezer is an extremely prolific writer, and very well respected on the continent, more in regards to autonomus nationalism, than strict 3rd positionism. In Eastern Europe particularly in Poland, Czech and Hungary the fascists seem to fall into two camps, the more respectable being essentially conservative capitalists, like Jobbik or the law and justice party in Poland. The other end of the spectrum is the likes of NOP who ,from what I understand from Polish comrades, would be a bigger street movement, with most football hooligans etc. rowing in behind their ideology.
 
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Please do x

I'm no expert, but I've come across "third positionism" and other forms of "left fascism" a fair few times over the years.

The first point must be something of a caveat. Just like the left much of the stuff you encounter is just noise endlessly spewed by a handful of egotists and hobbyists. Much like the above mentioned TS. A few individuals with a lifelong enthusiasm can generate an awful lot of apparent publications, organisations and websites. That's not to say this stuff doesn't have a genuine presence, it does, but that one should sift carefully.

Secondly, it's not "new". You can pick all kindsa start points, but old namesx like Strasser, Evola and Chesterton are regularly invoked.

I guess much like lefties exploring non-Leninist communism, much of this is non-Hitlerite fascism with a similar sort of purist appeal.

In the Uk they've explored environmentalism and animal rights, welsh and Irish Republicanism too.

Some get all into catholic fundamentalism.

Others went out and got hurt in the Balkan wars. I forget which side they fought for.

In Italy there's the whole Casa Pound thing, but it's complicated out there. Fascism ain't a fringe pursuit like here.

I've even seen Mexicans pushing this stuff.

However, it's also worth bearing in mind that aside from true believers, much of their audience and more casual activists are (again just like the left) hopping from vehicle to vehicle without any real preference.

For example, we "acquired" a large bunch of things from a local fash, he happily mixed his third positionist tat with with more trad NS paraphernalia.


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Apologies for the rambling nature of this post...
 
Ugh Julius Evola, loved by pseudo intellectual upper middle class fash, forums like the pH*ra where they all have a wank over his great works etc. The appeal of that over Nazism seems to be that according to them neo-nazis are unsophisticated morons living in trailer parks in the southern USA whereas if you study evola's writings it means you're part of the 'western intelligentsia'
 
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