The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[RD2003]

So NATO should've known that some people in Russia wouldn't like Russia signing the treaty so it was NATO's fault that the Russian government signed it?

This is really not becoming any clearer.

As I said, never mind.

 

[RD2003]

So it's an (unjustified) politician's war?

Of course it is. With rich pickings for the arms industry too. What do you imagine the Ukrainian working class, or the working class anywhere, is going to gain from this?

 

[Humberto]

But it's not their fault according to you, it's the West's and Russia has no agency.

 

[RD2003]

But it's not their fault according to you, it's the West's and Russia has no agency.

...

 

[Sue]

As I said, never mind.

Never mind because you can't back up what you're saying? Fair enough, you are pretty incoherent tbh.

 

[RD2003]

Never mind because you can't back up what you're saying? Fair enough, you are pretty incoherent tbh.

If you're interested, there are plenty of people who can put it better than me. Try Google.

 

[Sue]

If you're interested, there are plenty of people who can put it better than me. Try Google.

They're not on this thread. You are and have a lot to say though you seem pretty reluctant to address the points that are being made directly to you.

 

[RD2003]

They're not on this thread. You are and have a lot to say though you seem pretty reluctant to address the points that are being made directly to you.

Fine again.

 

[belboid]

Having stuck 'a certain poster' on ignore yesterday, there's only one post in the last two pages that I'm not ignoring or skipping past cos its just a reply to the russian doll.

 

[discokermit]

.

 

[RD2003]

An actual socialist comes on the left reponse thread. At fucking last.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It is no accident that Russia's move against Ukraine started after NATO declared that it could eventually join. In 2014 there was a western-backed coup, bringing to power a pro-western elite expressing its desire to join NATO and the EU. The rest follows. Ordinary Ukrainians lose. We lose. War profiteers and career politicians (if they remain alive at the end) gain.

This is pure Putin propaganda. The ousting of the crook Yanukovych was a good thing. And Ukraine was muddling itself towards something better than the corrupt kleptocracy it had been under Yanukovych. Imperfect as he may be, the election of Zelenskiy was part of that muddling towards something better.

You're anti-human if you buy the Russian line on this. You think it would have been better for 'ordinary Ukrainians' if the Yanukovych-style oligarchy had continued instead?

Clueless. Laughable once again.

 

[RD2003]

This is pure Putin propaganda. The ousting of the crook Yanukovych was a good thing. And Ukraine was muddling itself towards something better than the corrupt kleptocracy it had been under Yanukovych. Imperfect as he may be, the election of Zelenskiy was part of that muddling towards something better.

You're anti-human if you buy the Russian line on this. You think it would have been better for 'ordinary Ukrainians' if the Yanukovych-style oligarchy had continued instead?

Clueless. Laughable once again.

Even some Ukrainians living here (who undoubtedly support the current war) admitted to me (nay, bemoaned the fact) a while ago that more or less all those, on all sides, between the end of the USSR and Yanukovich, were blatant crooks. How could it not be the case after economic the free-for-all that took place from the late 1980s onwards? Don't know about the current gang, although I doubt if their backgrounds are untainted by corruption. And did anybody say Yanukovich was good? I seem to remember saying that the Maidan fiasco was a western-backed coup against an elected government. There's a difference.

Funnily enough, knowing those locally-living Ukrainians 20 year or so, they never much differentiated between Russians and Ukrainians, if at all, in the beginning. Gatherings at their houses involved Russian speakers living here from all over the former USSR. All that changed when the western funded campaign to put Ukraine on a collision course with Russia began in earnest.

I am 'anti-human' though, I admit. Prefer Martians.

 

[LDC]

“40 years of Stalinism” in Bosnia & Herzegovina. LOL. What absolutely clueless bullshit.

——

On the wider question, the “Western Left” has precisely zero relevance or influence in what happens in Ukraine in the next 4-6 weeks.

No idea why you made that look like something I said steeplejack ?

 

[bimble]

RD2003 should read this. Not only him but perhaps him especially.

The American Pundits Who Can’t Resist “Westsplaining” Ukraine

John Mearsheimer and other foreign policy figures are treating Russia’s invasion of Ukraine like a game of Risk.

newrepublic.com

 

[Serge Forward]

If you're interested, there are plenty of people who can put it better than me. Try Google.

Or to put it another way... do your own research.

 

[Serge Forward]

An actual socialist comes on the left reponse thread. At fucking last.

So how does your clear support for one particular section of the ruling class (the Russian bit) fit with what Connolly said? While there may be a few NATO cheerleaders on here, you are not really countering this with a class position. Instead you repeatedly stick to the wife beater's "look what you made me do" defence and back the other imperialist entity.

 

[RD2003]

I

RD2003 should read this. Not only him but perhaps him especially.

https://newrepublic.com/article/165...rasinians had listened to the 'westsplainwers

If the Ukrainians had listened to the 'Westsplainers,' hardly anybody would be dead.

Now they've got the 'Eastsplainers,' and it's a lot more lethal.

 

[RD2003]

So how does your clear support for one particular section of the ruling class (the Russian bit) fit with what Connolly said? While there may be a few NATO cheerleaders on here, you are not really countering this with a class position. Instead you repeatedly stick to the wife beater's "look what you made me do" defence and back the other imperialist entity.

Read my posts. I've given no clear support to anybody.

 

[Sue]

I

If the Ukrainians had listened to the 'Westsplainers,' hardly anybody would be dead.

Now they've got the 'Eastsplainers,' and it's a lot more lethal.

Again, I'm not clear what you're saying. Are you saying that if Ukraine had rolled over and done as Russia wanted, hardly anybody would be dead or have I misunderstood?

 

[RD2003]

Again, I'm not clear what you're saying. Are you saying that if Ukraine had rolled over and done as Russia wanted, hardly anybody would be dead or have I misunderstood?

If they'd taken notice of their own history and chosen neutrality, many now dead would be still alive is what I'm saying.

 

[Sue]

If they'd taken notice of their own history and chosen neutrality, many now dead would be still alive is what I'm saying.

That seems to mean 'if they'd done what Russia wanted, lots of Ukrainians wouldn't have died'. So basically it's their own fault? Doesn't seem a terribly Socialist position, this victim blaming thing.

 

[RD2003]

That seems to mean 'if they'd done what Russia wanted, lots of Ukrainians wouldn't have died'. So basically it's their own fault? Doesn't seem a terribly Socialist position, this victim blaming thing.

Don't know why you're so insistent about dragging this out when we both know what each of us thinks really.

You won anyway. You've got your war.

 

[Serge Forward]

Read my posts. I've given no clear support to anybody.

I've read 'em and you are clearly not taking the class position of neither NATO nor Moscow.

 

[Sue]

Don't know why you're so insistent about dragging this out when we both know what each of us thinks really.

You won anyway. You've got your war.

Oh dear. As you surely know (having been a member for five years), this is a discussion board. It's not 'dragging this out' if you're expressing your points so incoherently that I need to ask for clarification which you seem very reluctant to provide.

So no, I don't know what you really think which is why I'm trying to clarify your points.

I'm also not sure why believe you know what I think or why this war is a 'win' for me.

I'm finding your whole approach to discussion a bit puzzling tbh.

 

[hitmouse]

This Connolly fella sounds great, I've not looked him up but I imagine that there's no way a principled opponent of nationalism like him would ever get mixed up with something like military resistance to a foreign occupation.

 

[hitmouse]

No idea why you made that look like something I said steeplejack ?

It's from that long text from a comrade you posted back on page 2.

 

[RD2003]

I've read 'em and you are clearly not taking the class position of neither NATO nor Moscow.

Nor are you.

 

[The39thStep]

RD2003 should read this. Not only him but perhaps him especially.

The American Pundits Who Can’t Resist “Westsplaining” Ukraine

John Mearsheimer and other foreign policy figures are treating Russia’s invasion of Ukraine like a game of Risk.

newrepublic.com

Same paper that backed the Gulf War ?

 

[hitmouse]

The interview from the podcast that zahir posted upthread is now transcribed in a more readable format, along with a new text from inside Russia:

The View from Ukraine, the View from Russia

A protester in Russia and an exile from the Donbas region of Ukraine tell their stories, describing the invasion of Ukraine from their vantage points.

crimethinc.com

At the end it links to that Oksana Dutchak interview that's already been posted, and this which I think is new:

War Is Forcing Ukrainian Leftists to Make Difficult Decisions About Violence

An anarchist resistance fighter and an isolated pacifist take divergent paths toward peace.

truthout.org