The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[discokermit]

Heart problems, COPD, cataracts, overweight, old, can’t see anyone accepting me.

you never know. you need to stop puttin yourself down. whats the harm in trying?

 

[dessiato]

you never know. you need to stop puttin yourself down. whats the harm in trying?

The IDF turned me down in the past. I was much younger and fitter then.

 

[hitmouse]

I had a look at their website earlier, and also saw calls for Galloway's Workers Party to distribute leaflets there (won't link to them, but you imagine the content) and there is no way in hell I would go to those StW demos. I honestly think the main people involved in them are absolute fucking poison and need a good kicking. CND and any other organisations working with them should get a grip of themselves.

I mean, where I live it seems like there's one demo being called by the local Ukranian community and one demo being called by StW/the left, which I suppose sort of says it all. But I dunno, I also reckon that sometimes it can be worth going to demos to wind up the organisers as much as to support the cause, although I also don't know if I'll have that much energy for channelling my inner Ian Bone.

 

[discokermit]

The IDF turned me down in the past. I was much younger and fitter then.

apples and oranges. you have to be very fit to shoot children armed with slings from miles away, you wouldnt have to be so fit to sit on a bridge and blow yourself up.

 

[A380]

I thought this was particularly interesting, especially in response to some of the more Tankie extremes.

We must confront Russian propaganda – even when it comes from those we respect | George Monbiot

The grim truth is that for years, a small part of the ‘anti-imperialist’ left has been recycling Putin’s falsehoods, says Guardian columnist George Monbiot

www.theguardian.com

 

[nogojones]

The IDF turned me down in the past. I was much younger and fitter then.

You could try for the Russian army and they'd have do everything extra slow to let you catch up. Work smarter not harder

 

[Shechemite]

Jacobin did a fairly sensible (if aimed at their fellow self hating PMCs) YouTube vid: arguing for more humanitarian support rather than (just) military equipment. Didn’t bleat about ’legitimate security concerns’.

 

[dessiato]

I thought this was particularly interesting, especially in response to some of the more Tankie extremes.

We must confront Russian propaganda – even when it comes from those we respect | George Monbiot

The grim truth is that for years, a small part of the ‘anti-imperialist’ left has been recycling Putin’s falsehoods, says Guardian columnist George Monbiot

www.theguardian.com

Interesting piece. Worth reading.

 

[rekil]

I had a look at their website earlier, and also saw calls for Galloway's Workers Party to distribute leaflets there (won't link to them, but you can imagine the content)

In summary

'Keep RT (George) on the air'
'NATO NATO NATO'
'Nazis!'

Victory to Russia essentially.

and there is no way in hell I would go to those StW demos. I honestly think the main people involved in them are absolute fucking poison and need a good kicking. CND and any other organisations working with them should get a grip of themselves.

The codepink crankies reckon Iran is entitled to be armed to the teeth, which doesn't strike me as a particularly 'antiwar' position, and they've been at that ghastly holocaust denial shindig.

I'm guessing that the overall tone will be something along the lines of "Russia's movement of forces is a mistake but refugees welcome (even though they're all NATO nazi stooges who basically asked for it)"

 

[emanymton]

I thought this was particularly interesting, especially in response to some of the more Tankie extremes.

We must confront Russian propaganda – even when it comes from those we respect | George Monbiot

The grim truth is that for years, a small part of the ‘anti-imperialist’ left has been recycling Putin’s falsehoods, says Guardian columnist George Monbiot

www.theguardian.com

Not a direct reply but saw this was on this morning.

We at Stop the War condemn the invasion of Ukraine, and warmongers on all sides | Lindsey German

The anti-war movement is no supporter of Putin. But we can, at the same time, criticise our government’s dreadful war record, says Lindsey German, convenor of Stop the War

www.theguardian.com

 

[Ĝasper]

good rant
The key question within it, I think, is: "Further, you talk about how you desire to stop “NATO expansion” but you don’t really mention what, exactly, would be a viable alternative to it."

-I think at this point there is no alternative to a massive pile up of arms on the NATO eastern border. The question of alternatives is over for decades to come, and a new arms curtain will be in place.

The question of what could've been done differently preceding this has may answers and possibilities. Of course there were alternatives, politics isn't an immutable force of nature. To discuss those earlier alternatives is now academic as the immediate military defence of other eastern european countries is now an unstoppable conclusion. Though it is worth thinking about them, and concluding that there were options. To not do so is to fall into the imperial-endless-war-ideology trap.

UN surely?

 

[hitmouse]

Not a direct reply but saw this was on this morning.

We at Stop the War condemn the invasion of Ukraine, and warmongers on all sides | Lindsey German

The anti-war movement is no supporter of Putin. But we can, at the same time, criticise our government’s dreadful war record, says Lindsey German, convenor of Stop the War

www.theguardian.com

For a second there I briefly thought the subheader was Lindsey German going "we can criticise our own dreadful record". That thing about proposing to remove the Engels statue from Manchester is bonkers though, that'll show Putin!

 

[CNT36]

UN surely?

Yes, they could definitely have had whatever weak as gnats piss action they came up with vetoed by the aggressor in Ukraine or one of the four other security Council members who are all sound as fuck.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

There's always been those on the Marxist left who refuse to see what a catastrophe the Bolshevik Revolution was. Right from the kick-off. Some reckon it was OK until Lenin died. Others until Trotsky was exiled. Some blame internal enemies, others external ones. Despite all the horrors of the Soviet Union they still have that lingering warm feeling about it all. Even now that Russia is no longer officially socialist they can't quite let go. All too willing to (rightly) criticise western economic imperialism while ignoring the good old-fashioned boots-on-the-ground Russian imperialism, inherited from the Tsars. An ingrained doublethink. I do think, or hope, that it's in decline. Unfortunately groups like Stop the War coalition are dominated by that kind of world view.

 

[RD2003]

There's always been those on the Marxist left who refuse to see what a catastrophe the Bolshevik Revolution was. Right from the kick-off. Some reckon it was OK until Lenin died. Others until Trotsky was exiled. Some blame internal enemies, others external ones. Despite all the horrors of the Soviet Union they still have that lingering warm feeling about it all. Even now that Russia is no longer officially socialist they can't quite let go. All too willing to (rightly) criticise western economic imperialism while ignoring the good old-fashioned boots-on-the-ground Russian imperialism, inherited from the Tsars. An ingrained doublethink. I do think, or hope, that it's in decline. Unfortunately groups like Stop the War coalition are dominated by that kind of world view.

It clings on because nobody else has been able to come up with an alternative that is either coherent or capable of garnering a mass audience in the working class.

 

[hitmouse]

I mean, where I live it seems like there's one demo being called by the local Ukranian community and one demo being called by StW/the left, which I suppose sort of says it all. But I dunno, I also reckon that sometimes it can be worth going to demos to wind up the organisers as much as to support the cause, although I also don't know if I'll have that much energy for channelling my inner Ian Bone.

Following on from this, went to the Ukranian community demo today. There'd been a People's Assembly one in town just before, which I couldn't be fucked with, but good to see some people who'd been on that one with a Unison banner also turned up to show support for the start of this one. Placards ranged from "no war/stop the war" to stuff asking for no fly zones, lots of Ukranian flags, some people with Lithuanian and Georgian ones, reasonably sizeable Hong Kong and Taiwan contingent. Some absolute lefty divs, who'd presumably been on the People's Assembly demo, turned up for a bit and stood around saying things like "Well, I notice there's no Palestinian flags here" and "stop the war, support the American empire!" I couldn't be arsed getting into an argument with them, but if that was RD2 then nice to meet you in person I suppose?
One elderly woman who had a sign saying something like "stop the invasion - no to imperialism east and west" was invited to speak, talked about having been in the anti-war movement since the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia and the US war in Vietnam, said some stuff about opposing the invasion but you can't trust NATO or the Americans, then said something about climate change at which point some people started booing and chanting "stop Putin" over her. Lots of Ukranian folk music and the bloody national anthem. Did see someone who'd made a "we stand with Ukraine" placard with red/black lettering and spent a while trying to work out if that meant they were one of my co-thinkers or something very different, but they were too far away for me to be able to check for any further clues.

 

[Pickman's model]

There's always been those on the Marxist left who refuse to see what a catastrophe the Bolshevik Revolution was. Right from the kick-off. Some reckon it was OK until Lenin died. Others until Trotsky was exiled. Some blame internal enemies, others external ones. Despite all the horrors of the Soviet Union they still have that lingering warm feeling about it all. Even now that Russia is no longer officially socialist they can't quite let go. All too willing to (rightly) criticise western economic imperialism while ignoring the good old-fashioned boots-on-the-ground Russian imperialism, inherited from the Tsars. An ingrained doublethink. I do think, or hope, that it's in decline. Unfortunately groups like Stop the War coalition are dominated by that kind of world view.

tbh it's things like this that undermine one's faith in marxism as being scientific, if so many of its adherents are so easily bamboozled when their enemy's enemy turns out to be an enemy too.

 

[A380]

…. turned up for a bit and stood around saying things like "Well, I notice there's no Palestinian flags here" and "stop the war, support the American empire!" …

They had to say that: how else would people have known they were the best protestors there otherwise?

 

[A380]

tbh it's things like this that undermine one's faith in marxism as being scientific, if so many of its adherents are so easily bamboozled when their enemy's enemy turns out to be an enemy too.

It’s a religion, like many others, for lots of people. And I say that from someone who literally got mine on my mother’s knee.

 

[Ĝasper]

Yes, they could definitely have had whatever weak as gnats piss action they came up with vetoed by the aggressor in Ukraine or one of the four other security Council members who are all sound as fuck.

ffs
I'm hopeful it gets reformed asap

 

[hitmouse]

Some stuff from euro-autonomisty types:

The War in Ukraine Seen on the Ground. Interview with Oksana Dutchak - Transnational Social Strike Platform

Oksana Dutchak is a researcher based in Ukraine and an activist of E.A.S.T. – Essential Autonomous Struggles Transnational. She tells about the current ever-changing situation in Ukraine and local attempts of self-organization to cope with the war. The question of how to create a transnational...

www.transnational-strike.info

March 8th: Strike the War! - Transnational Social Strike Platform

by E.A.S.T. (Essential Autonomous Struggles Transnational) French Stop the war in Ukraine! On 8M we call for a transnational feminist strike against war! We are outraged by the brutal aggression that Putin and his imperialist war brought to Ukraine. We know that neither the people in Ukraine nor...

www.transnational-strike.info

 

[LDC]

Some stuff from euro-autonomisty types:

The War in Ukraine Seen on the Ground. Interview with Oksana Dutchak - Transnational Social Strike Platform

Oksana Dutchak is a researcher based in Ukraine and an activist of E.A.S.T. – Essential Autonomous Struggles Transnational. She tells about the current ever-changing situation in Ukraine and local attempts of self-organization to cope with the war. The question of how to create a transnational...

www.transnational-strike.info

March 8th: Strike the War! - Transnational Social Strike Platform

by E.A.S.T. (Essential Autonomous Struggles Transnational) French Stop the war in Ukraine! On 8M we call for a transnational feminist strike against war! We are outraged by the brutal aggression that Putin and his imperialist war brought to Ukraine. We know that neither the people in Ukraine nor...

www.transnational-strike.info

That first article is really good, thanks!

 

[CNT36]

US-plaining is not enough. To the Western left, on your and our mistakes - Lefteast

Do not let half-baked political positions substitute an analysis of the situation. The injunction that the main enemy is in your country should not translate into a flawed analysis of the inter-imperialist struggle. At this stage appeals to dismantle NATO or, conversely, accepting anyone there...

lefteast.org

You face a challenge of reacting to a war that is not waged by your countries. Given all the theoretical impasses I alluded to above, there is no simple way to frame an anti-war message. One thing remains painfully clear: you can help deal with the consequences of the war providing assistance to refugees from Ukraine no matter what skin colour or passport they have. You can also pressurize your government into cancelling Ukraine’s foreign debt and providing humanitarian help.

Do not let half-baked political positions substitute an analysis of the situation. The injunction that the main enemy is in your country should not translate into a flawed analysis of the inter-imperialist struggle. At this stage appeals to dismantle NATO or, conversely, accepting anyone there, will not help those who suffer under the bombs in Ukraine, in jails in Russia or Belarus. Sloganeering is harmful as ever. Branding Ukrainians or Russian fascists only makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution. A new autonomous reality emerges around Russia, a reality of destruction and harsh repressions, a reality where a nuclear conflict is not unthinkable anymore. Many of us have missed the tendencies leading to this reality. In the fog of war, we do not see clearly the contours of the new. Neither do, as it seems, the American or European governments.

In this reality we, the post-Soviet left, will have incomparably less organizational, theoretical, and simply vital resources. Without you, we will struggle to survive. Without us, you will be closer to the precipice.

 

[Dogsauce]

Definitely some ‘both sidesism’ going on from sections of the left.

I mean the west in general can easily be subject to accusations of hypocrisy after illegal and unwarranted invasion of Iraq etc., but that doesn’t mean you can’t oppose what Putin is doing, especially when the majority of us also spoke out about Blair’s adventures, so no personal inconsistency.

 

[RD2003]

Definitely some ‘both sidesism’ going on from sections of the left.

I mean the west in general can easily be subject to accusations of hypocrisy after illegal and unwarranted invasion of Iraq etc., but that doesn’t mean you can’t oppose what Putin is doing, especially when the majority of us also spoke out about Blair’s adventures, so no personal inconsistency.

Only thing that matters is that this is a war, like so many others, that didn't need to happen. Ukraine has been mugged off by the West, and the Ukrainian working class is now paying the price.

 

[steeplejack]

Bosnia there was every opportunity for a militant to conduct socialist activity. The working class, emerging from 40 years of Stalinism, was very confused but certainly a real presence within the war

“40 years of Stalinism” in Bosnia & Herzegovina. LOL. What absolutely clueless bullshit.

——

On the wider question, the “Western Left” has precisely zero relevance or influence in what happens in Ukraine in the next 4-6 weeks.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

On the wider question, the “Western Left” has precisely zero relevance or influence in what happens in Ukraine in the next 4-6 weeks.

Not as much as that in my opinion.

 

[zahir]

Crimethinc podcast. For me the most interesting part is an interview with an anarchist in the Ukraine, starting at 36 minutes in.

The Ex-Worker

A Podcast of Anarchist Ideas and Action For Everyone Who Dreams of a Life Off the Clock

crimethinc.com

As the Russian invasion of Ukraine proceeds, anarchists on both sides of the border are mobilizing to resist. This episode collects a variety of statements and accounts from anti-authoritarians explaining their opposition to Putin’s bloodthirsty imperialism while rejecting nationalism and the state. We share messages from the newly formed anarchist Committee of Resistance in Kyiv, as well as from Russian anarchist groups including Food Not Bombs Moscow, Anarchist Fighter, and St. Petersburg’s Anarchist Black Cross. These testimonies refute Russian state and authoritarian leftist propaganda about the invasion and emphasize the possibilities for resistance and solidarity. An anarchist refugee attempting to escape the war zone gives a detailed report on daily life in the midst of war, martial law, the political composition of the armed forces, the grassroots mobilization of society for defense and mutual aid, the situation at the border, and ways to show support. Stay tuned for more coverage of anarchist analysis and resistance from the front lines of imperial war.

 

[hitmouse]

Only thing that matters is that this is a war, like so many others, that didn't need to happen. Ukraine has been mugged off by the West, and the Ukrainian working class is now paying the price.

Aye, it's fucked up how the West has started this war by invading Ukraine.

Crimethinc podcast. For me the most interesting part is an interview with an anarchist in the Ukraine, starting at 36 minutes in.

The Ex-Worker

A Podcast of Anarchist Ideas and Action For Everyone Who Dreams of a Life Off the Clock

crimethinc.com

Yeah, has a transcription for people who can't be bothered with the audio, which is something not enough podcasts do.

 

[RD2003]

Aye, it's fucked up how the West has started this war by invading Ukraine.

Yeah, has a transcription for people who can't be bothered with the audio, which is something not enough podcasts do.

Amazing how many people can't grasp the simple fact that if the Ukrainians hadn't been wound up into anti-Russian fervour by western money and political intervention (remember McCain 2014 addressing the crowds at Maidan), and the promise of an easy life on the EU gravy train, then almost nobody would have been killed. Instead we have mass slaughter and a humanitarian crisis, And all for what?

Do you think there's going to be some kind of worldwide breakthrough for anarchism if the Ukrainians win? (Although there will be no outright winners.)