The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[hitmouse]

That's how history works. John McCain says things, and then people follow him.

 

[RD2003]

That's how history works. John McCain says things, and then people follow him.

It's merely one example of what was happening. As many have said, would the US have stood for a leading Russian or Chinese politician going into the Mexican capital and winding everybody up against the US after pouring billions into an anti-US movement and putting their political stooges in place?

And you haven't yet made it clear what anarchism has to gain here.

 

[Sue]

Amazing how many people can't grasp the simple fact that if the Ukrainians hadn't been wound up into anti-Russian fervour by western money and political intervention (remember McCain 2014 addressing the crowds at Maidan), and the promise of an easy life on the EU gravy train, then almost nobody would have been killed. Instead we have mass slaughter and a humanitarian crisis, And all for what?

I'm a bit unclear. Are you saying the Ukrainians were asking for it or that it was it the West's fault that Russia invaded? Or something else?

 

[RD2003]

I'm a bit unclear. Are you saying the Ukrainians were asking for it or that it was it the West's fault that Russia invaded? Or something else?

Of course it's the West's fault ultimately. Certain influential people on here (!) don't like me posting up the compilation of warnings about what expanding NATO right up to the Russian border ultimately meant, from people ranging from Kissinger to Chomsky, with a host of people who had diplomatic and political dealings with the ex-USSR in between, because the website it appeared on is that of some unknown person who is deemed dodgy on here for whatever reason (which will not be relevant in the real world anyway.)

In their different ways, all warned that it would lead to the biggest crisis since the cold war. And now we're in it. And it's easily worse than anything that happened then.

 

[Sue]

Of course it's the West's fault ultimately. Certain inflential people on here (!) don't like me posting up the compilation of warnings about what expanding NATO right up to the Russian border ultimately meant, from people ranging from Kissinger to Chomsky, with a host of people who had diplomatic and political dealings with the ex-USSR in between, because the website is that of some unknown person who is deemed dodgy on here for whatever reason (which will not be relevant in the real world anyway.)

In their different ways, all warned that it would lead to the biggest crisis since the cold war. And now we're in it.

I see. And what, if any, culpability do you think Russia has in all this?

 

[hitmouse]

What's your take on Ireland? Who's fault was it, who's the outside agitator who made the UK have to do Bloody Sunday?

 

[RD2003]

I see. And what, if any, culpability do you think Russia has in all this?

They have the primary responsibility. They invaded. But, as more intelligent people than me or you warned, it was always going to happen if they expanded NATO up to the Russian border.

 

[RD2003]

What's your take on Ireland? Who's fault was it, who's the outside agitator who made the UK have to do Bloody Sunday?

Yes, clearly every situation is the same.

 

[Dogsauce]

“Look what you’ve made me do now”

 

[Humberto]

18 years ago Estonia joined.

 

[hitmouse]

Yes, clearly every situation is the same.

My apologies, I'm struggling to keep up with your insights. Could you provide me with a list of the countries where people can do things without instructions from John McCain and a list of the countries where everything what happens is cos of the US?

 

[RD2003]

My apologies, I'm struggling to keep up with your insights. Could you provide me with a list of the countries where people can do things without instructions from John McCain and a list of the countries where everything what happens is cos of the US?

Jesus. Is this what anarchism has become?

 

[RD2003]

“Look what you’ve made me do now”

The apolitical, ahistorical outlook of so many on here is staggering,

 

[Sue]

They have the primary responsibility. They invaded. But, as more intelligent people than me or you warned, it was always going to happen if they expanded NATO up to the Russian border.

But Ukraine isn't in NATO and, even if it were, Russia signed the NATO–Russia Founding Act 1997 which said it would respect the ‘inherent right’ of all states ‘to choose the means to ensure their own security’.

And that followed on from
the USSR signing the Charter of Paris in 1990 which said it would ‘fully recognize the freedom of States to choose their own security arrangements’.

So you know, if you sign these things (which the USSR/Russia did), then you should really honour them, no?

 

[RD2003]

18 years ago Estonia joined.

What, is there an anniversary party planned or summat?

 

[RD2003]

But Ukraine isn't in NATO and, even if it were, Russia signed the NATO–Russia Founding Act 1997 which said it would respect the ‘inherent right’ of all states ‘to choose the means to ensure their own security’.

And that followed on from
the USSR signing the Charter of Paris in 1990 which said it would ‘fully recognize the freedom of States to choose their own security arrangements’.

So you know, if you sign these things (which the USSR/Russia did), then you should really honour them, no?

Doesn't all this stem from when NATO decided Georgia and Ukraine could apply to join?

None of us know what the thinking of those in office in Russia who signed those treaties was. And it clearly isn't the thinking of their successors.

Isn't history full of examples of powers signing treaties that were subsequently not kept? It isn't going to suddenly change.

What is happening now is more in line with the thinking of Russian rulers through the ages than anything that happened in the Gorbachev period. The thinking of those who really matter in Russia is something else that isn't going to change even if governments eventually might. Governments are, after all, temporary.

 

[Humberto]

What, is there an anniversary party planned or summat?

No they were already expanded up to the Russian border 18 years ago at least, so why now?

 

[Sue]

Doesn't all this stem from when NATO decided Georgia and Ukraine could apply to join?

None of us know what the thinking of those in office in Russia who signed those treaties was. And it clearly isn't the thinking of their successors.

That's kind of tough luck for their successors then eh?

Isn't history full of examples of powers signing treaties that were subsequently not kept? It isn't going to suddenly change.

So one side (Russia) doesn't honour the deal but

Of course it's the West's fault ultimately.

Help me out here, I'm genuinely struggling with your logic.

 

[RD2003]

That's kind of tough luck for their successors then eh?

So one side (Russia) doesn't honour the deal but

Help me out here, I'm genuinely struggling with your logic.

I don't know what else to say. Sadly, you're becoming incoherent.

 

[RD2003]

No they were already expanded up to the Russian border 18 years ago at least, so why now?

Do you know how differently the Russians have tradItionally regarded Ukraine? It's common knowledge that Ukraine translates into English as the frontier.

 

[Sue]

I don't know what to say. Sadly, you're becoming incoherent.

Oh dear, let's try this again.

Two parties (let's call them Russia and NATO because that's what they're called) sign a deal. Russia doesn't honour that deal and you say that ultimately that's the West/NATO's fault.

Can you explain your logic because it doesn't really seem to follow.

 

[Humberto]

Do you know how differently the Russians have tradItionally regarded Ukraine? It's common knowledge that Ukraine translates into English as the frontier.

But Ukraine isn't in Nato. Estonia Latvia etc on the border with Russia already are. So why now and how can it be justified? That's all I'm asking.

 

[Sue]

Do you know how differently the Russians have tradItionally regarded Ukraine? It's common knowledge that Ukraine translates into English as the frontier.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the price of cheese.

 

[Dogsauce]

I strongly suspect shit going down in Belorus may have been the prompt for the current invasion, although evidence suggests it’s been in planning for years. A more western-leaning government might have left the Russian imperialists feeling surrounded.

All a fucking shame really, they could have flogged their oil and gas to us and lived well off the proceeds, built a decent society out of it all. Instead the population got fucked over by looting cunts in the post-soviet era, and nationalists prevailed when social support collapsed or was taken away, as happens nearly everywhere these days. Instead it’s all bloody murder and chaos for fuck all reason. I suspect whatever the outcome of the current war, there will be empowered nationalists on both sides. Damn it all to hell and all that.

Like in conventional wars in recent years, the west may have won the Cold War, but didn‘t win the peace, although that would probably have just meant our own looting pricks sharing the proceeds.

 

[RD2003]

Oh dear, let's try this again.

Two parties (let's call them Russia and NATO because that's what they're called) sign a deal. Russia doesn't honour that deal and you say that ultimately that's the West/NATO's fault.

Can you explain your logic because it doesn't really seem to follow.

It is NATO's fault ultimately because treaties or not, they know what Ukraine means to a certain type of Russian (the type who happen to have been in power for 20 years.) And yet they needlessly pushed the issue, starting under Yeltsin (who finally objected) when Russia was on its knees and threatening nobody.

Have this again folks. The only gain from this goes the way of the war profiteers.

Hedges: Chronicle of a War Foretold

I was in Eastern Europe in 1989 reporting on the revolutions that overthrew the ossified communist dictatorships that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was a time of hope. NATO, with the breakup of the Soviet empire, became obsolete.

scheerpost.com

 

[RD2003]

I'm not sure what this has to do with the price of cheese.

Fine.

 

[RD2003]

But Ukraine isn't in Nato. Estonia Latvia etc on the border with Russia already are. So why now and how can it be justified? That's all I'm asking.

It is no accident that Russia's move against Ukraine started after NATO declared that it could eventually join. In 2014 there was a western-backed coup, bringing to power a pro-western elite expressing its desire to join NATO and the EU. The rest follows. Ordinary Ukrainians lose. We lose. War profiteers and career politicians (if they remain alive at the end) gain.

 

[Sue]

It is NATO's fault ultimately because treaties or not, they know what Ukraine means to a certain type of Russian (the type who happen to have been in power for 20 years.) And yet they needlessly pushed the issue, starting under Yeltsin (who finally objected) when Russia was on its knees.

So NATO should've known that some people in Russia wouldn't like Russia signing the treaty so it was NATO's fault that the Russian government signed it?

This is really not becoming any clearer.

 

[Humberto]

It is no accident that Russia's move against Ukraine started after NATO declared that it could eventually join. In 2014 there was a western-backed coup, bringing to power a pro-western elite expressing its desire to join NATO and the EU. The rest follows. Ordinary Ukrainians lose. We lose. War profiteers and career politicians (if they remain alive at the end) gain.

So it's an (unjustified) politician's war?

 

[RD2003]

I'm frankly amazed (or maybe I'm not) that people think the niceties actually matter in any of this.