The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[co-op]

If they'd taken notice of their own history

Yes how foolish of them to overlook their own history, if only a few clever foreigners like you had been on hand in the halls of power to tell them about it.

 

[andysays]

Read my posts. I've given no clear support to anybody.

Maybe you've avoided (or think you've avoided) giving clear and explicit support to Putin, but whether you admit it or not, the implications of your posts are to effectively back this invasion.

Before the invasion happened I thought the threat was being hyped up, and I still think it's possible to criticise the long term actions of NATO over its expansion ever eastwards.

But to continue to focus on that, as you have ever since the invasion started, is to ignore Putin's responsibility, and to go along with what someone above (ETA looking back I see it was Serge Forward ) has called the wife beater defence.

 

[Serge Forward]

Nor are you.

Evidence? I am only too aware of the role of NATO and "the West" in the build up to what we have now, as are you. What I am not doing is bending over backwards to defend the actions of imperial Russia under Putin. You are. Yours is not a class position, it seems more like a fucked up variant of "revolutionary defeatism" where you support the "other country's" imperialism in its opposition to your "own county's" imperialism... all mixed in with a weird hankering for the days when Russia was "socialist" (actual existing, deformed or degenerate, whichever was your take on it). For you, the notion of class is much less relevant.

 

[RD2003]

Evidence? I am only too aware of the role of NATO and "the West" in the build up to what we have now, as are you. What I am not doing is bending over backwards to defend the actions of imperial Russia under Putin. You are. Yours is not a class position, it seems more like a fucked up variant of "revolutionary defeatism" where you support the "other country's" imperialism in its opposition to your "own county's" imperialism... all mixed in with a weird hankering for the days when Russia was "socialist" (actual existing, deformed or degenerate, whichever was your take on it). For you, the notion of class is much less relevant.

Half of this seems to arise from poor comprehension skills, or else a wilful desire to misunderstand.

The rest is just made up.

 

[RD2003]

Maybe you've avoided (or think you've avoided) giving clear and explicit support to Putin, but whether you admit it or not, the implications of your posts are to effectively back this invasion.

Before the invasion happened I thought the threat was being hyped up, and I still think it's possible to criticise the long term actions of NATO over its expansion ever eastwards.

But to continue to focus on that, as you have ever since the invasion started, is to ignore Putin's responsibility, and to go along with what someone above (ETA looking back I see it was Serge Forward ) has called the wife beater defence.

If you wish you can go a short way back up the thread and see that I haven't ignored Putin's responsibility.

 

[andysays]

Half of this seems to arise from poor comprehension skills, or else a wilful desire to misunderstand.

The rest is just made up.

Yeah, just like it's 100% NATO or the west's fault that Putin has invaded Ukraine, it's 100% everyone else's fault that you're posting such shit

 

[smmudge]

Having stuck 'a certain poster' on ignore yesterday, there's only one post in the last two pages that I'm not ignoring or skipping past cos its just a reply to the russian doll.

It's funny because usually you think of Russian interference as designed to create division and chaos. Yet here we are, more united than ever over our cemented belief that this poster is a twat.

 

[andysays]

If you wish you can go a short way back up the thread and see that I haven't ignored Putin's responsibility.

The overall direction of your posts and your position is clear.

 

[RD2003]

Yes how foolish of them to overlook their own history, if only a few clever foreigners like you had been on hand in the halls of power to tell them about it.

Well it is weird how the 'Westsplainers' seem to have a better grasp of the history of certain countries than so many of those who actually live there, not to mention the inevitable consequences of certain actions.

But I can't help that.

I expect there are many Ukrainians who understand our history better than many of us. In fact, I know it from experience.

 

[RD2003]

Same paper that backed the Gulf War ?

Wouldn't surprise me if they had.

Not that it matters now that we're all at one with our own ruling class and the arms industry.

 

[RD2003]

The overall direction of your posts and your position is clear.

Perhaps, but I didn't absolve Putin of responsibility after all, did I? (I hear Putin is quite annoyed about this. Fearing Novichok in the post any day now.)

 

[andysays]

Perhaps, but I didn't absolve Putin of responsibility after all, did I? (I hear Putin is quite annoyed about this. Fearing Novichok in the post any day now.)

Talking about "the inevitable consequences of certain actions" as you did just few posts ago does absolve Putin of responsibility.

 

[RD2003]

Talking about "the inevitable consequences of certain actions" as you did just few posts ago does absolve Putin of responsibility.

No it doesn't.

 

[discokermit]

dont bother. these people are cunts.

 

[steeplejack]

No idea why you made that look like something I said steeplejack ?

I don't think anyone thinks you said it. Strange observation.

Whoever you were quoting, rambling on about the Bosnian working class "emerging from forty years of Stalinism" has not one single clue what they're talking about. It's embarrassing.

Why quote it then?

 

[LDC]

I don't think anyone thinks you said it. Strange observation.

Whoever you were quoting, rambling on about the Bosnian working class "emerging from forty years of Stalinism" has not one single clue what they're talking about. It's embarrassing.

Why quote it then?

Because I thought I was a useful, if not entirely correct, read. FWIW it was from someone that lived and worked there for a long time, including through the war. IMO your post just made it look like it was a quote from a post I made rather than an article I posted. Anyway, doesn't matter.

There really is quite a lot of dick like behaviour on this thread, becoming a bit depressing tbh.

 

[RD2003]

It's a disgrace when Peter Hitchens gets it more right than the lefties (awaits the predictable 'Hitchens is a cunt' blah blah...)

PETER HITCHENS: One glorious day in Sevastopol, I saw what was coming

PETER HITCHENS: In the long-ago summer of 2010, I found myself in the harbour of Sevastopol, surveying the rival fleets of Russia and Ukraine as they rode at anchor in the lovely Crimean sunshine.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[steeplejack]

Because I thought I was a useful, if not entirely correct, read. FWIW it was from someone that lived and worked there for a long time, including through the war. IMO your post just made it look like it was a quote from a post I made rather than an article I posted. Anyway, doesn't matter.

There really is quite a lot of dick like behaviour on this thread, becoming a bit depressing tbh.

Well I'm sorry if I came across as a dick, but one thing the world really doesn't need more of is clueless Western takes on recent Balkan history.

FWIW if this has ripples BiH is amongst the countries that will feel it the strongest. This weekend (quite apart from assorted fascists and anti-vax loons coming together to mount a huge pro-Putin demo in Belgrade) the Serbian army called up reservists, and NATO significantly beefed up its presence in BiH.

 

[frogwoman]

Well I'm sorry if I came across as a dick, but one thing the world really doesn't need more of is clueless Western takes on recent Balkan history.

FWIW if this has ripples BiH is amongst the countries that will feel it the strongest. This weekend (quite apart from assorted fascists and anti-vax loons coming together to mount a huge pro-Putin demo in Belgrade) the Serbian army called up reservists, and NATO significantly beefed up its presence in BiH.

Where do you see Serbia coming in with this? I saw the pro Russian demo in Belgrade.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's a disgrace when Peter Hitchens gets it more right than the lefties (awaits the predictable 'Hitchens is a cunt' blah blah...)

PETER HITCHENS: One glorious day in Sevastopol, I saw what was coming

PETER HITCHENS: In the long-ago summer of 2010, I found myself in the harbour of Sevastopol, surveying the rival fleets of Russia and Ukraine as they rode at anchor in the lovely Crimean sunshine.

www.dailymail.co.uk

You give us blah blah and try to palm off the cuntitude onto hitchens. Poor Peter hitchens isn't the cunt here - you on the other hand...

 

[ska invita]

So you know, if you sign these things (which the USSR/Russia did), then you should really honour them, no?

Imperialists are well known to always following the rules and do the right thing for the common good This isnt a parking ticket dispute

 

[LDC]

Well I'm sorry if I came across as a dick, but one thing the world really doesn't need more of is clueless Western takes on recent Balkan history.

FWIW if this has ripples BiH is amongst the countries that will feel it the strongest. This weekend (quite apart from assorted fascists and anti-vax loons coming together to mount a huge pro-Putin demo in Belgrade) the Serbian army called up reservists, and NATO significantly beefed up its presence in BiH.

No worries, not meaning you (well, maybe a bit ) more some of the stars in here. Anyway, hard times, sometimes we all need to step back a bit before we post or leap to answers, be defensive etc etc. Sorry.

 

[Serge Forward]

Half of this seems to arise from poor comprehension skills, or else a wilful desire to misunderstand.

The rest is just made up.

Or, the way you communicate is arse.

 

[LDC]

From elsewhere, for people's info....

Thought I add some updates on the incredible organising that appears to be happening transnationally and within Ukraine — i say appears because apart from trusted comrades of comrades, all I have to go by is them.

Firstly, comrades in Ukraine within the anarchist/anti-authoritarian movement — its small but growing and very active. The main forces are Rev Dia (a supposedly anarchist militia) and operation solidarity (also affiliated to another new anarchist militia front called 'resistance committee). Rev Dia is by and large ostracised from the movement due to past violent attacks, a "horrible group" according to one comrade inc. an attempted murder on one of their own comrades,but in this moment they seem to be working together in some way, there seems consensus across the movement for armed resistance along side the mutual aid work.

Secondly, there is a lot of work on sending ambulances to Ukraine — comrades in France have apparently managed to acquire 31 ambulances that are currently being checked at an ambulance garage with the aim to leave on Monday as part of the ambulance convoy, similarly 8 ambulances are being prepped in Poland to join it.

Thirdly, there are still a large number of African students still in Ukraine, 900 of them in the city of Sumy, 20 km from the Russian border. They are currently stuck there as Russian troops have taken control of the train station. A lot of international work is being done in terms of both providing assistance and monitoring violations that are happening with racists. A few days ago a 100 polish neo-nazis turned up to a border villages harrassing and intimidating non-white refugees.

Lastly, there's a lot of very sporadic but widespread solidarity. Even locally where i am there's a van heading to ukraine loaded with medical supplies - it was organised by ppl in the community as one ukrainian person's daughter is in Ukraine studying to be a doctor.

Just to summarize the infos available about Ukraine actual situation :

MEDIAS :

• @Theblackheadquarter | Linktree
• @operation.solidarity | Linktree
• @BlackPeopleInUkraine | Linktree

TELEGRAM CHANNELS :

• ОПЕРАЦІЯ СОЛІДАРНІСТЬ OPERATION SOLIDARITY
• Комітет Спротиву /// Resistance Committee
• Turning Point
• No_Borders_Team
• UANTIFA 161
• OSINT UKRAINE
• CrimethInc. Ex-Workers Collective

WEBSITES :

• Operation Solidarity – Horizontal volunteer organization in Ukraine.
• https://praleski.org/help
• Africans Leaving Ukraine.com
• CrimethInc. ex-Workers’ Collective: Your ticket to a world free of charge

TWITTERS :
@theblackheadqua
@bad_immigrant
@JustJolomi
@nzekiev
@DrAwofaa

EMAILS :

• asolidaritywithukraine@riseup.net
• blackheadquarterinua@riseup.net

TO GET IN TOUCH WITH TEAMS ACTIVE ON THE BORDERS :

• Grushiv crossing help (@hrushiv_help)
• Krakivets help (@krakivets_help)
• Rava-Ruska crossing mutual aid (@rawa_ruska_help)
• Ustilug crossing mutual aid (@ustyluh_help)
• Shehyni overpass (@shehyni_help)
• Jagodyn crossing mutual aid (@yagodyn_help)

DONATIONS :

• Donation - Anarchist Black Cross Dresden
• Donate – Operation Solidarity

VOLONTEERING APPLICATION FORM :
- CryptPad

MILITARY APPLICATION FORM :
- CryptPad

TRANSPORTATION FROM POLAND TO GERMANY :
- из польши а германию / from poland to germany

MONITORING OF THE VIOLENT POLISH FASCISTS HUNTING REFUGEES (IN PRZEMYSL) :
- Inżynierowie Przemyśl – Google Drive

INFORMATION ABOUT ANTI AUTHORITARIAN PERSPECTIVES IN UKRAINE (TO GIVE TO ALL THOSE WHO THINK ABOUT GOING TO HELP THERE) :

• War and Anarchists: Anti-Authoritarian Perspectives in Ukraine
• Ukraine: Between Two Fires
• Against Annexations and Imperial Aggression

 

[steeplejack]

Where do you see Serbia coming in with this? I saw the pro Russian demo in Belgrade.

The glaikit sack of tatties Vučić has a careful balancing act. He certainly cosies up to global authoritarians (Belagrde was full of Hvala Brate Xi - thanks Brother Xi) posters last year as the Chinese helped with Covid vaccines; Serbia played a role in partially vaccinating Bosnians and Macedonians as well as their own citizens (although the anti-vaxxer loon brigade is very strong there). Serbia also strives for very close relations with Russia. However, equally, it is being considered for EU membership- in no small part because massive lithium deposts in the far western town of Loznica (and there's little doubt there will be significant deopists over the border in the RS "entity" of BiH.

Lithium squabbles may be a part of this. Apparently, Merkel, in her farewell plenipotentiary's tour of the non-EU Balkan periphery, told Vučić "We are counting on your lithium". Macron apparently recently told Vučić that Serbia was right at the front of the queue for EU accession ( a queue that we all know doesn't actually exist; EU accession is governed by realpolitik rather than rules & principle). So, just as Tito played East off against West and took money from both during 1948-80, so Vučić is playing the same delicate balancing game.

His instinctive sympathy though is with the Chinese & the Russians; I don't think the Serbs are terribly serious about EU accession (it might hamper too many people stealing money as they've done for so long); plus there are a fair few in the European "business leaders" subset who absolutely don't want Serbia in the EU. Germany, Austria, Sweden all have recently established factories / facilities in Serbia where Serbs are paid 3-400 euros a month for a job that a German or Austrian would be paid 5-6 times monthly to do the same task in their home countries. Of course Vučić & fellow kleptocrats do very nicely out of these arrangements and wouldn't want to upset them as the anonymous EU satrap who asked just before the Christmas holiday: "If we let them in, what will become of our cheap labour?" The EU's relations with the non-EU Balkans are entirely colonial and extractive, and these multiple injustices in turn fuels support for regional nationalists- not just Vučić but also the warring ethnic leaderships in BiH politics.

Milorad Dodik, the leader of the RS "entity", is an ex cigarette smuggler and greedy opportunist. He has been covertly dealing with Russia for a few years and the Hungarian Orbanists who came close to endorsing his separatist ambitions at the beginning of the year. He has vowed to establish separate RS-only institutions on the territory of BiH including separating the armed forces and establishing RS's own separate army- something forbidden in all peace agreements and complex mechanisms for governance in BiH. However subsequent events in Ukraine may means that ship has sailed. Putin has rather bigger fish to fry, since Feb 24th, tha jockeying Dodik's separatist ambitions and he now has zero cash to support them.

Serbia has also been directly involved in stirring up trouble in recent upheavals in Montenegro, but I won go into that as this post is already borderline thesis-length.

Vučić would be insane to start Balkan War 2.0 and he won't. Dodik is quite a bit more unpredictable. However since Putin invaded Ukraine his room for maneovre and to play games has been reduced hugely. However it seems NATO are taking no chances, and rightly so. The arrival of new troops & equipment this weekend ought to focus minds in Banja Luka as to the possible consequences of continuing to try and enact separation / federalism with Serbia proper. TO be clear Vučić isn't calling for that, doesn't support it, and in the main Serbs in Belgrade business & political elites regard Serbs in RS the same way Tory Unionists regard working class loyalists in Belfast- they're useful, but also regarded with much disdain and embarrassment.

tl;dr: it's very complicated and confusing, and an authoritarian sociopath like Vučić- directly involved in the Milošević milieu in the 1990s- shold not be dealt with at anything other than surface level. But because Serbia can be a useful counterweight to authoritarianism, can provide a narrative that the EU's crap policies in the Western Balkans are somehow working, and because lithium, they will try at least to keep him close.

 

[Sue]

I find your contributions really interesting/helpful in explaining a very complicated situation, steeplejack. Thanks.

 

[steeplejack]

I find your contributions really interesting/helpful in explaining a very complicated situation, steeplejack. Thanks.

Thanks Sue

 

[hitmouse]

From elsewhere, for people's info....

Thought I add some updates on the incredible organising that appears to be happening transnationally and within Ukraine — i say appears because apart from trusted comrades of comrades, all I have to go by is them.

Firstly, comrades in Ukraine within the anarchist/anti-authoritarian movement — its small but growing and very active. The main forces are Rev Dia (a supposedly anarchist militia) and operation solidarity (also affiliated to another new anarchist militia front called 'resistance committee). Rev Dia is by and large ostracised from the movement due to past violent attacks, a "horrible group" according to one comrade inc. an attempted murder on one of their own comrades,but in this moment they seem to be working together in some way, there seems consensus across the movement for armed resistance along side the mutual aid work.

Cheers for the background on Rev Dia, I had seen their instagram and noticed one western anarcho/antifa media media outlet boosting them, but noticed that most of the other sources I check don't mention them so had wondered if there was something going on there. Don't suppose if your source knows if they have any connection to that whole mess with the Belarusian antifascist in Warsaw, or is that unrelated?

 

[hitmouse]

Anyway, did go and have a look at the StW demo today for a bit. Noticeably smaller than the Ukrainian one yesterday, and a lot less blue and yellow. More papersellers though, I spotted Socialist Worker, Counterfire, Morning Star and a few people going round giving out KKE leaflets. First speaker did mention encouraging Russian soldiers to turn their guns on their officers, which I can agree with, but then also went on to do the inevitable NATO bit, including "they overthrew the elected government in 2014 to install a puppet". From the looks of it, didn't seem like they had a single Ukrainian, Russian, Belarusian or even Polish person speaking, but then I didn't stick around for the whole thing. Feels like virtually every speech I did hear had some variation on "we condemn the Russian invasion, but..."
Reader, they did indeed have a Palestinian flag at this one.

 

[LDC]

Anyway, did go and have a look at the StW demo today for a bit. Noticeably smaller than the Ukrainian one yesterday, and a lot less blue and yellow. More papersellers though, I spotted Socialist Worker, Counterfire, Morning Star and a few people going round giving out KKE leaflets. First speaker did mention encouraging Russian soldiers to turn their guns on their officers, which I can agree with, but then also went on to do the inevitable NATO bit, including "they overthrew the elected government in 2014 to install a puppet". From the looks of it, didn't seem like they had a single Ukrainian, Russian, Belarusian or even Polish person speaking, but then I didn't stick around for the whole thing. Feels like virtually every speech I did hear had some variation on "we condemn the Russian invasion, but..."
Reader, they did indeed have a Palestinian flag at this one.

Just seen a StW Twitter video of Corbyn give a fucking clueless speech about if they can have a ceasefire for refugee corridors they can have one to stop the war. I mean is that thick, delusionally hopeful, or just all he can say?