The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[LDC]

Cheers for the background on Rev Dia, I had seen their instagram and noticed one western anarcho/antifa media media outlet boosting them, but noticed that most of the other sources I check don't mention them so had wondered if there was something going on there. Don't suppose if your source knows if they have any connection to that whole mess with the Belarusian antifascist in Warsaw, or is that unrelated?

No idea, I'll ask.

 

[andysays]

Just seen a StW Twitter video of Corbyn give a fucking clueless speech about if they can have a ceasefire for refugee corridors they can have one to stop the war. I mean is that thick, delusionally hopeful, or just all he can say?

Unfortunately, even today's ceasefire for evacuation hasn't held, neither did the one yesterday, so the idea of stopping the war with one seems a little unlikely ATM

A fresh bid to evacuate civilians from the southern city of Mariupol which began at 12:00 local time (10:00 GMT) has been halted. The city council said the attempt was not possible due to Russian shelling

 

[belboid]

Anyway, did go and have a look at the StW demo today for a bit. Noticeably smaller than the Ukrainian one yesterday, and a lot less blue and yellow. More papersellers though, I spotted Socialist Worker, Counterfire, Morning Star and a few people going round giving out KKE leaflets. First speaker did mention encouraging Russian soldiers to turn their guns on their officers, which I can agree with, but then also went on to do the inevitable NATO bit, including "they overthrew the elected government in 2014 to install a puppet". From the looks of it, didn't seem like they had a single Ukrainian, Russian, Belarusian or even Polish person speaking, but then I didn't stick around for the whole thing. Feels like virtually every speech I did hear had some variation on "we condemn the Russian invasion, but..."
Reader, they did indeed have a Palestinian flag at this one.

couple of hundred, if that, at the Sheffield demo. Oddly, not only were there zero Ukrainian flags, there were no banners calling for Britain out of NATO either. Virtually no placards at all either except for generic 'No to War in Ukraine' ones.

 

[deeyo]

Same paper that backed the Gulf War ?

yep. and the contras. (& their editor in the 50s was a russian spy...)
but it's changed owner twice since the war and is supposed to be much more to the left since the last change.

i thought the piece bimble linked to was well worth reading. some good links in it, too.

Spoiler: stuff about the paper & the writer

The American Pundits Who Can’t Resist “Westsplaining” Ukraine

John Mearsheimer and other foreign policy figures are treating Russia’s invasion of Ukraine like a game of Risk.

newrepublic.com

Were We Wrong?

This magazine supported the Iraq war for two reasons, one primarily strategic, one primarily moral. The strategic reason was simple: We considered war the only way to ensure that Saddam Hussein never acquired a nuclear weapon. The Bush administration spoke about “weapons of mass...

newrepublic.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/2004/06/19/new-republic-editors-regret-their-support-of-iraq-war/d2a85a98-29ed-467f-a36f-3297e5cda1fe/

The New Republic - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

https://milled.com/the-new-republic/introducing-the-soapbox-a-new-tnr-newsletter-on-politics-p7V-tjMKYkKrcQ48

About — Jan Dutkiewicz

 

[rekil]

Just seen a StW Twitter video of Corbyn give a fucking clueless speech about if they can have a ceasefire for refugee corridors they can have one to stop the war. I mean is that thick, delusionally hopeful, or just all he can say?

It just illustrates how he paid zero attention to that thing that happened in Syria, apart from indulging assadists and cranks like Declan Hayes (who? exactly). For my sins, I zipped through the rest of the speeches, lots of 'what about yemen/palestine', a tone deaf BLM person, zombie Tariq Ali. They're highlighting the 'russian troops out' bits on their twitter machine, which strikes me as nothing more than a cynical ruse to mug a few normal people into the racket.

Reader, they did indeed have a Palestinian flag at this one.

One 'bitcoin would fix this' sign spotted.


A piece on our own Clare Daly's tragic crankie mix of malice and ineptitude.

The EU needs to sit down at the table and say ‘enough bloodshed’ says MEP Clare Daly

Dublin MEP Clare Daly has doubled down on her criticism of the West for antagonising Russia.

www.independent.ie

She said she and Mr Wallace had been “absolutely forthright in their condemnation” of the attack on Ukraine, despite voting with only 11 others against a European Parliament motion censuring Russia. The motion attracted 637 votes in support.

 

[frogwoman]

I don't get the what about Palestine thing at all. Have they ever been to Russia, spoke to any Russians or paid attention to the relationship Putin has with the Israeli state?

It's not like Putin has a bad relationship with the UAE and various middle eastern dictators either, let alone his activities in Mali etc

 

[LDC]

It just illustrates how he paid zero attention to that thing that happened in Syria, apart from indulging assadists and cranks like Declan Hayes (who? exactly). For my sins, I zipped through the rest of the speeches, lots of 'what about yemen/palestine', a tone deaf BLM person, zombie Tariq Ali. They're highlighting the 'russian troops out' bits on their twitter machine, which strikes me as nothing more than a cynical ruse to mug a few normal people into the racket.



One 'bitcoin would fix this' sign spotted.


A piece on our own Clare Daly's tragic crankie mix of malice and ineptitude.

The EU needs to sit down at the table and say ‘enough bloodshed’ says MEP Clare Daly

Dublin MEP Clare Daly has doubled down on her criticism of the West for antagonising Russia.

www.independent.ie

StW seem to be pushing the Code Pink cranks as well quite heavily. Honestly, that lot (StW etc.) are a fucking poison to everything they touch.

 

[hitmouse]

It just illustrates how he paid zero attention to that thing that happened in Syria, apart from indulging assadists and cranks like Declan Hayes (who? exactly). For my sins, I zipped through the rest of the speeches, lots of 'what about yemen/palestine', a tone deaf BLM person, zombie Tariq Ali. They're highlighting the 'russian troops out' bits on their twitter machine, which strikes me as nothing more than a cynical ruse to mug a few normal people into the racket.

They had a bit of chanting of both something un-catchy like "Russia out of Ukraine now" and "no to NATO expansion", I got the feeling that some bits of the crowd might have been keener on joining in with one bit than the other.

One 'bitcoin would fix this' sign spotted

Any Assange? I spotted one Assange sign as well, I think I got the impression that the holder was annoyed at the demo being too anti-Putin/not anti-NATO enough at one point.

I don't get the what about Palestine thing at all. Have they ever been to Russia, spoke to any Russians or paid attention to the relationship Putin has with the Israeli state?

It's not like Putin has a bad relationship with the UAE and various middle eastern dictators either, let alone his activities in Mali etc

I think it's also the implication that anyone who's upset about what Russia's doing has clearly never spoken out or done anything about Palestine. I do reckon the Israel/Russia comparison is an interesting one, since Israel can genuinely claim to be encircled by hostile states, face regular provocation and so on, but I can't see many of today's context enthusiasts rushing to remind everyone of that next time they start bombing.

 

[Shechemite]

Was there any ‘Zelensky is an antisemite’ nonsense?

 

[frogwoman]

They had a bit of chanting of both something un-catchy like "Russia out of Ukraine now" and "no to NATO expansion", I got the feeling that some bits of the crowd might have been keener on joining in with one bit than the other.

Any Assange? I spotted one Assange sign as well, I think I got the impression that the holder was annoyed at the demo being too anti-Putin/not anti-NATO enough at one point.

I think it's also the implication that anyone who's upset about what Russia's doing has clearly never spoken out or done anything about Palestine. I do reckon the Israel/Russia comparison is an interesting one, since Israel can genuinely claim to be encircled by hostile states, face regular provocation and so on, but I can't see many of today's context enthusiasts rushing to remind everyone of that next time they start bombing.

They literally come out with the exact same shit. 'Human shields' 'terrorists' etc.

 

[LDC]

Honestly the first person I meet that says Ukrainians are Nazis, or the war is fake, is a Putin supporter, ot something like that I am highly likely to completely lose the plot at them.

 

[hitmouse]

Was there any ‘Zelensky is an antisemite’ nonsense?

Not directly that I remember, think there was at least one vague reference to NATO backing neo-nazis though.

 

[ska invita]

Just seen a StW Twitter video of Corbyn give a fucking clueless speech about if they can have a ceasefire for refugee corridors they can have one to stop the war. I mean is that thick, delusionally hopeful, or just all he can say?

'Delusionally hopeful' I'd hope.
I mean it is possible - it would however require the Ukrainians to stop fighting and start negotiating their country away to some degree.
There's a high probability it will get to that point anyway before too long <which I think is at the heart of Corbyn's logic, based on what I've heard him say elsewhere.
Militarily its defeatist, but if a military defeat/stalemate is inevitable, then there is a humanitarian logic to it. A bitter pill to swallow, I appreciate, but one i can see the logic of.

 

[frogwoman]

My grandma (a big Russia Today fan) apparently asked my dad 'How do you know that the Ukrainians are not Nazis'?

 

[NoXion]

Was there any ‘Zelensky is an antisemite’ nonsense?

I've run across this once elsewhere. No details, just the accusation. I've been disappointed in people enough times that I didn't think to really challenge it; how bollocks is it really?

EDIT: "Nazi apologist" was the exact wording used actually. Might be a different claim, but it's also suspiciously close to the "Ukraine is run by Nazis" Russian government line.

 

[LDC]

'Delusionally hopeful' I'd hope.
I mean it is possible - it would however require the Ukrainians to stop fighting and start negotiating their country away to some degree.
There's a high probability it will get to that point anyway before too long <which I think is at the heart of Corbyn's logic, based on what I've heard him say elsewhere.
Militarily its defeatist, but if a military defeat/stalemate is inevitable, then there is a humanitarian logic to it. A bitter pill to swallow, I appreciate, but one i can see the logic of.

More require the Russians to stop (probably more of an ask) as well as the Ukrainians, and then the Ukrainians to possibly give up their entire country to a borderline fascist regime that likely will impose a horrendously repressive life on the people living there. Corbyn and similar can fuck right off telling people that live there that's the best outcome and one everyone should be working towards.

He's stuck basically, poisoned by his political history and pacifism, and his fixation on peace at any cost (to others, not him).

 

[co-op]

He's stuck basically, poisoned by his political history and pacifism, and his fixation on peace at any cost (to others, not him).

And this facile "my enemy's enemy is my friend" thing. He hates NATO therefore he is sympathetic to Putin.

It's so dumb, I can't believe how many people are spouting the "it's NATOS's fault" line - as if Putin had no options; who has had more agency in the past 2 months than Putin? No one.

 

[ska invita]

More require the Russians to stop (probably more of an ask) as well as the Ukrainians, and then the Ukrainians to possibly give up their entire country to a borderline fascist regime that likely will impose a horrendously repressive life on the people living there. Corbyn and similar can fuck right off telling people that live there that's the best outcome and one everyone should be working towards.

Well yes, I can see that.
There's a no surrender no retreat dynamic here, both internal to Ukraine and from outside from the wider forces (including Russian zealotry of course) that means this war will go to a bitter end...(and potentially even beyond that if it spreads wider). Unless there is a Ukrainian victory with a full Russian rout I dont see this as a better outcome for Ukrainian people, but as you say who could tell them not to resist as they see fit.

And this facile "my enemy's enemy is my friend" thing. He hates NATO therefore he is sympathetic to Putin.

I think that's a reductionist and simplistic mischaracterisation

Can you draw any lessons from the last 30 years say that might have avoided such a disastrous conflict?

 

[RD2003]

Well yes, I can see that.
There's a no surrender no retreat dynamic here, both internal to Ukraine and from outside from the wider forces (including Russian zealotry of course) that means this war will go to a bitter end...(and potentially even beyond that if it spreads wider). Unless there is a Ukrainian victory with a full Russian rout I dont see this as a better outcome for Ukrainian people, but as you say who could tell them not to resist as they see fit.


I think that's a reductionist and simplistic mischaracterisation

Can you draw any lessons from the last 30 years say that might have avoided such a disastrous conflict?

Ner ner ner, they can't hear you.

 

[co-op]

I think that's a reductionist and simplistic mischaracterisation

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Can you draw any lessons from the last 30 years say that might have avoided such a disastrous conflict?

Yes, although of course they'd all depend on hypotheticals so they're basically just conversation points. They're also splendidly irrelevant now.

 

[RD2003]

Thanks for sharing your opinion.



Yes, although of course they'd all depend on hypotheticals so they're basically just conversation points. They're also splendidly irrelevant now.

Yes, so irrelevant that there's a war in Europe because of them.

 

[hitmouse]

Essential new text from Syrian refugees/exiles in France:

War in Ukraine: Ten Lessons from Syria

Syrian exiles reflect on how their experience in the Syrian Revolution can inform international solidarity against the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

crimethinc.com

Good to see this from Crimethinc, since their Syria coverage in the past has been a bit "biji Rojava, if there's other people who don't have a political party whose leader talks about Murray Bookchin then we don't know about them". Might make a good, if very long, leaflet to give out.

 

[hitmouse]

Freedom have also published a new article from someone whose heart is probably in the right place, but it's genuinely unreadable.

 

[LDC]

Freedom have also published a new article from someone whose heart is probably in the right place, but it's genuinely unreadable.

This one? A thousand red flags

 

[hitmouse]

This one? A thousand red flags

Yes , that's the one I was talking about . Article that badly needs editing watchdog says woof woof woof woof woof.

 

[danny la rouge]

This one? A thousand red flags

Yes, and we’ve responded without mentioning their need for sub editors.

Identity, nationalism and xenophobia at Freedom - Anarchist Communist Group

We cannot leave the recent comment pieces in Freedom uncommented on. The first piece, “Fuck Leftist Westplaining” (4th March), contained much that we politically and intellectually, disagreed with. While we have every sympathy for where it was coming from emotionally, unfortunately, any point...

www.anarchistcommunism.org

 

[Serge Forward]

Freedom seems to have seriously deteriorated. The first of the two articles was weird but the thousand red flags one actually shocked me. While it's true that in the 40-odd years I've been occasionally reading Freedom, it's had more than its fair share of bum articles, this particular one has crossed a line that no anarchist publication should cross. Sickening stuff.

 

[hitmouse]

Yes, and we’ve responded without mentioning their need for sub editors.

Identity, nationalism and xenophobia at Freedom - Anarchist Communist Group

We cannot leave the recent comment pieces in Freedom uncommented on. The first piece, “Fuck Leftist Westplaining” (4th March), contained much that we politically and intellectually, disagreed with. While we have every sympathy for where it was coming from emotionally, unfortunately, any point...

www.anarchistcommunism.org

Christ, maybe the article is worse than I thought, I genuinely did struggle to get through it so think some of the more objectionable bits just glided past. Although, in my capacity as spokesperson for the Anarchists for More and Better Sub-Editors Campaign, I would stress that sub-editors can help to make articles less racist, as well as just tidying them up enough that the reader can actually tell whether or not they're being racist.

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah

Christ, maybe the article is worse than I thought, I genuinely did struggle to get through it so think some of the more objectionable bits just glided past. Although, in my capacity as spokesperson for the Anarchists for More and Better Sub-Editors Campaign, I would stress that sub-editors can help to make articles less racist, as well as just tidying them up enough that the reader can actually tell whether or not they're being racist.

In general I just really hate stuff like this lol like stop trying to be fucking buzzfeed lol.

The red flag machine is going brrrrrr and Eastern Europeans are losing their minds. I just want to fill my eyes with anything that isn’t an aggressively friendly #content list of “How to cope with the Ukraine situation”

He says the rest of the world hates us, watch how they treat us. He says Ukrainians are Russophobes (imagine). The insular, exceptional nationalism which Putin has been carefully nurturing and weaponising will only become more effective if the rest of the world turns its back on Russian people.

[...]Do you think Putin watches Eurovision? Do you think cancelling football will finally stop him? Is de-platforming meerkats going to help? Do you find yourself suddenly crying when you hear Tchaikovsky for some reason? If so, have you considered simply not telling everyone about it?

I actually don't think this is a bad point (seems to be arguing against russophobia tbh) but in that case why say it's ok to be russophobic and put this point in a paragraph seeming to argue this?

FWIW I don't actually disagree with the idea that 'russophobia is not anti left' but I don't really consider myself part of 'the left' any more

 

[hitmouse]

Yeah

In general I just really hate stuff like this lol like stop trying to be fucking buzzfeed lol.

I actually don't think this is a bad point (seems to be arguing against russophobia tbh) but in that case why say it's ok to be russophobic and put this point in a paragraph seeming to argue this?

FWIW I don't actually disagree with the idea that 'russophobia is not anti left' but I don't really consider myself part of 'the left' any more

Full agreement there, the rest of the paragraph does indeed seem to be arguing against russophobia so I genuinely don't know how far it's just terrible editing/sentence construction or what?