The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?
- Thread starter hitmouse
- Start date
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
Reckon you might be overthinking this a little. My takeaway of that particular point in the Freedom piece, is that the Western left in general should pay more attention to local voices in the parts of the world they insist on talking about. Maybe that's a trite and obvious point to some, but I guess it still needs listening to.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
i don't really think i consider myself a 'revolutionary' any more lol. I didn't get that from her piece at all tbh, no doubt I'd find things to disagree with her on but I didn't get that sort of idpol focused vibe from it at all.
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
But that's one of the tensions here, innit, what do we do when people more plugged into the realities on the ground in EE are saying or doing things that seem to go against our principles and instincts? What takes precedence?
Something we can do is support non-state initiatives to help those in Ukraine and those fleeing.
This is a crowdfunder for an ambulance convoy for Ukraine. Please give serious thought to donating if you can and sharing. They need money for fuel and any other supplies. It's in French but I managed to donate to it :
Ambulance Anti War Convoy - Leetchi.com
And this to help at the border. Please donate and share if you can :
fundrazr.com
I hear that the WSI (Workers Solidarity Initiative) are also helping refugees from Ukraine.
This is a crowdfunder for an ambulance convoy for Ukraine. Please give serious thought to donating if you can and sharing. They need money for fuel and any other supplies. It's in French but I managed to donate to it :
Ambulance Anti War Convoy - Leetchi.com
And this to help at the border. Please donate and share if you can :
Ukraine border relief. Depart 15th April.
We are private individuals who wish to bring comfort and sanctuary to those who are displaced by a war not of their making. We aim to supply food, medical supplies and transport. Why? That is simple. Because we can. How could we not?
I hear that the WSI (Workers Solidarity Initiative) are also helping refugees from Ukraine.
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danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
It runs through it like the name of the resort in a stick of seaside rock, from the title to the conclusion. I think we can excuse the tenor of the piece a little because it’s emotionally close to home for her. It’s reasonable to be angry and fearful about a war on the border of ones family’s home.
But at the same time I have a close Polish comrade in Glasgow ACG who does not express things the way she does and who approved the ACG statement.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
Thanks AA. That’s great.Something we can do is support non-state initiatives to help those in Ukraine and those fleeing.
This is a crowdfunder for an ambulance convoy for Ukraine. Please give serious thought to donating if you can and sharing. They need money for fuel and any other supplies. It's in French but I managed to donate to it :
Ambulance Anti War Convoy - Leetchi.com
And this to help at the border. Please donate and share if you can :
Ukraine border relief. Depart 15th April.
We are private individuals who wish to bring comfort and sanctuary to those who are displaced by a war not of their making. We aim to supply food, medical supplies and transport. Why? That is simple. Because we can. How could we not?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Well there's two separate questions aren't there?
What can/should we do about intervening there?
What can/should we do about intervening here?
Somehow that space between here and there needs addressing.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
It's a dirty job but someone's gotta do it.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
There are a few 'idpol focused' responses to this conflict that I have personally found really problematic recently and just lefty virtue signalling for the sake of it but didn't see any of that in her piece although again I'd probably find other things to disagree with her on.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
But that point (as expressed in that article) is to welcome nato support. And we’re thick if we don’t understand why they’d want that. It is, at best, patronising shit. At worst it’s simply falling in with the imperialist power that isn’t directly oppressing you. It is the same old ‘you haven’t lived it so don’t dare make any comment’ Such falling in behind your enemies enemy is hardly new (see kropotkin in ww1), but it is bollocks.
That piece is well shared because ‘fuck leftist westsplaining’ is a cracking phrase (that I’ve now seen picked up by a couple of western b52 liberals) whereas the other one is incoherent and explicitly goes along with the othering of Russians (and, by default, of Ukrainians from the Russian perspective) which is just shameful.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
those who only have a hammer tend to see nails
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I think that's a fair point TBH although it seemed to be saying why NATO support was popular or preferable to not joining it as opposed to saying it was unequivocally a good thing. I also wondered what eg Serbian readers would think reading that as at points it did seem to lump former communist countries in together.
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
Something I've been thinking about, in the debate between the defeatist nwbcw internationalist leftist westsplainers vs the defencist anarcho-nationalists, or however we want to frame it, is:
Obv, the strength of the Ukrainian far-right is overstated by murderous dicks for shitty purposes. But they do exist (I think that possibly one of the worst bits of the
gibberish is how close it came to denying that), and they're stronger than we'd like. They definitely came out in a strengthened position after 2014 because (to borrow a well-worn lefty cliche), they were seen as being "the best fighters" against Yanukovych, and then against the DPR/LPR/Russian imperialism. In contrast, in Belarus, while the anarcho movement there isn't massive, I think they're able to have a disproportionate influence because people who might not agree with everything or even much of what anarchists say still respect them as being serious, dedicated, militant fighters against the Lukashenko regime.
Anyway, Ukrainian nazis came out of 2014 in a strengthened position and I think there's a very real chance they'll be able to do the same from this conflict. Of course, the more RT-brained bellends conflate all resistance to the Russian invasion with nazism the more they help Azov's ability to make that argument, but that's by the by. Anyway, I think the more that non- or indeed anti-fascist forces take part in the resistance, the more they'll be able to contest the far-right's claims to be the real defenders of Ukraine or whatever.
And I can certainly see the arguments about why anarchists should not take part in national defence. No-one wants to be a bad Kropotkin. But what I'm trying to work out is, is there any way of applying the defeatist nwbcw position that isn't just completely abandoning the political field to the far-right at worst, and pro-NATO/EU neoliberals at best? Is it possible to exist as an independent political force during an invasion without being part of the resistance to the invasion?
I appreciate that since we're probably not going to be rushing to form the U75 Column either way, this is all a bit speculative and abstract. But still.
Obv, the strength of the Ukrainian far-right is overstated by murderous dicks for shitty purposes. But they do exist (I think that possibly one of the worst bits of the
gibberish is how close it came to denying that), and they're stronger than we'd like. They definitely came out in a strengthened position after 2014 because (to borrow a well-worn lefty cliche), they were seen as being "the best fighters" against Yanukovych, and then against the DPR/LPR/Russian imperialism. In contrast, in Belarus, while the anarcho movement there isn't massive, I think they're able to have a disproportionate influence because people who might not agree with everything or even much of what anarchists say still respect them as being serious, dedicated, militant fighters against the Lukashenko regime.Anyway, Ukrainian nazis came out of 2014 in a strengthened position and I think there's a very real chance they'll be able to do the same from this conflict. Of course, the more RT-brained bellends conflate all resistance to the Russian invasion with nazism the more they help Azov's ability to make that argument, but that's by the by. Anyway, I think the more that non- or indeed anti-fascist forces take part in the resistance, the more they'll be able to contest the far-right's claims to be the real defenders of Ukraine or whatever.
And I can certainly see the arguments about why anarchists should not take part in national defence. No-one wants to be a bad Kropotkin. But what I'm trying to work out is, is there any way of applying the defeatist nwbcw position that isn't just completely abandoning the political field to the far-right at worst, and pro-NATO/EU neoliberals at best? Is it possible to exist as an independent political force during an invasion without being part of the resistance to the invasion?
I appreciate that since we're probably not going to be rushing to form the U75 Column either way, this is all a bit speculative and abstract. But still.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Something I've been thinking about, in the debate between the defeatist nwbcw internationalist leftist westsplainers vs the defencist anarcho-nationalists, or however we want to frame it, is:
Obv, the strength of the Ukrainian far-right is overstated by murderous dicks for shitty purposes. But they do exist (I think that possibly one of the worst bits of the
Anyway, Ukrainian nazis came out of 2014 in a strengthened position and I think there's a very real chance they'll be able to do the same from this conflict. Of course, the more RT-brained bellends conflate all resistance to the Russian invasion with nazism the more they help Azov's ability to make that argument, but that's by the by. Anyway, I think the more that non- or indeed anti-fascist forces take part in the resistance, the more they'll be able to contest the far-right's claims to be the real defenders of Ukraine or whatever.
And I can certainly see the arguments about why anarchists should not take part in national defence. No-one wants to be a bad Kropotkin. But what I'm trying to work out is, is there any way of applying the defeatist nwbcw position that isn't just completely abandoning the political field to the far-right at worst, and pro-NATO/EU neoliberals at best? Is it possible to exist as an independent political force during an invasion without being part of the resistance to the invasion?
I appreciate that since we're probably not going to be rushing to form the U75 Column either way, this is all a bit speculative and abstract. But still.
I think it's possible to at least conceive of a way being a part of a resistance to an invasion like the one we're currently witnessing in Ukraine which isn't taking part in "national defence".
How possible that is to achieve in practice in the current situation I wouldn't want to be a leftist westsplainer about, and I don't think that should be the primary focus of those of us here in Britain or elsewhere in "the west"
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Yes, the fash elements in Ukraine did come out of 2014 in a stronger position, at least initially. Conversely, the anarchists seemed to come out of 2014 much worse off. As there's no strong class or social movements in Ukraine to speak of, and as anarchists have not really been in a position to encourage or participate in the building of any meaningful social movement, then they're left with the options of either fighting to defend the liberal/conservative/bourgeois nation state (nationalism, a terrible option) or fighting to defend friends, families and what's left of their communities (an understandable and preferable, though still terrible, option). Unfortunately, that 1000 Red Flags article has pretty much gone straight for the first option. Because nationalism is now very well established in Ukraine, and without the existence of mass social movements there, then I see no possibility of an independent (non-nationalist) force at present. So, it leaves us with anarcho-trenchism as an adjunct to the national resistance... or back to no war but the class war.Something I've been thinking about, in the debate between the defeatist nwbcw internationalist leftist westsplainers vs the defencist anarcho-nationalists, or however we want to frame it, is:
Obv, the strength of the Ukrainian far-right is overstated by murderous dicks for shitty purposes. But they do exist (I think that possibly one of the worst bits of the
Anyway, Ukrainian nazis came out of 2014 in a strengthened position and I think there's a very real chance they'll be able to do the same from this conflict. Of course, the more RT-brained bellends conflate all resistance to the Russian invasion with nazism the more they help Azov's ability to make that argument, but that's by the by. Anyway, I think the more that non- or indeed anti-fascist forces take part in the resistance, the more they'll be able to contest the far-right's claims to be the real defenders of Ukraine or whatever.
And I can certainly see the arguments about why anarchists should not take part in national defence. No-one wants to be a bad Kropotkin. But what I'm trying to work out is, is there any way of applying the defeatist nwbcw position that isn't just completely abandoning the political field to the far-right at worst, and pro-NATO/EU neoliberals at best? Is it possible to exist as an independent political force during an invasion without being part of the resistance to the invasion?
I appreciate that since we're probably not going to be rushing to form the U75 Column either way, this is all a bit speculative and abstract. But still.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Most UK people don't have direct experience of having their ethnic/national identity denied/erased/attacked. Of being forced in work or social or educational environments to speak a foreign language. Or having to pretend they belong to another ethnicity. Or being regularly overlooked for promotion or other advancement because of their ethnicity. Or having their religions or customs banned by authority. Or having their way of life subjected to hostile propaganda by the state. Or being subject to violent abuse both now and, collectively, in the past. How people react to stuff like that will vary and can easily slide off into a reactive racism aimed at the oppressors.
Ideally the route taken will be down the sort of route taken by Korean anarchists in the past, where they focused both on national liberation from imperial Japan and on international cooperation with Japanese and Chinese anarchists. Or the Kurdish PKK/Rojava attempt at national self-realisation within multi ethnic realities, however imperfect the reality on the ground.
Ideally the route taken will be down the sort of route taken by Korean anarchists in the past, where they focused both on national liberation from imperial Japan and on international cooperation with Japanese and Chinese anarchists. Or the Kurdish PKK/Rojava attempt at national self-realisation within multi ethnic realities, however imperfect the reality on the ground.
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
I mean, I can see the logic of that, but you'd hope that the views and ideas we form would have some practical relevance to those who are being bombed and shelled? If they're not, it feels like that's a bit of a flaw?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Dunno. I think that depends. Obviously there's forms of practical solidarity we can make, and we can use use our ideas to try and stick to the principle of "solidarity not charity", perhaps. But beyond that? I think we'd have to see what we came up with.
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Is there any evidence that our views can be better because of that luxury?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh ideas are generally improved by a spot of exercise and necessity rather than swilling tea in armchairs is famously the mother of invention.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Depends what you mean by "better" I guess.
Regardless, most of us currently have that luxury and it will frame our views whether we acknowledge it or not.
Regardless, most of us currently have that luxury and it will frame our views whether we acknowledge it or not.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
thing is it's all very well saying stuff like 'no war but the class war' (and i agree) but its a bit of an abstract slogan in this context, since there is a war there, whether you like it or not. and advocating that people didn't fight or fought 'on a class basis' would basically be taken to mean surrender to russia (or ukraine in parts of the donbass which were affected by stuff like the ATO pre-2022) in some cases. idk what the answer is but i think people need to recognise that.
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
I meant to but the " round better myself.
It will inform our views I'm not sure that means we have an advantage of any kind.
Anyway I should probably say your rather than our.
I'm not an anarchist and struggle to form a view on what to have for tea never mind anything else. And I certainly have no influence on anyone else.
Nikkormat
Well-Known Member
It's easy to forget the north in this; a 56-tweet thread of a Finnish perspective. In brief, there is a good reason leftists in countries bordering Russia are more pro-NATO than those sat across the sea.
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