Most of us are detached from the realities on the ground in eastern Europe. No sense expecting otherwise.
...at the same time I'm not comfortable with veering towards any sort of construction of eastern Europe as some sort of Other.
i don't really think i consider myself a 'revolutionary' any more lol. I didn't get that from her piece at all tbh, no doubt I'd find things to disagree with her on but I didn't get that sort of idpol focused vibe from it at all.We (the ACG) refer to that other piece in our response.
Personally I do think you’ve highlighted one of the areas that revolutionaries in the “West” need to take note of. I did have a lot of trouble with the way it was all couched in identity, though.
I have met the author and like her; we’ve been for a pint in my local. But I think we have to accept that she and I come from different traditions. The identity focused milieu (she’d probably prefer to call it intersectionalism, but I think that’s claiming ownership of a term that initially at least had useful things to say) is drifting ever further from class struggle communism.
The language each uses tends to pass the other by and can lead to misunderstandings. There’s no reason we shouldn’t have respectful exchanges, but we increasingly occupy very different spaces.
But that's one of the tensions here, innit, what do we do when people more plugged into the realities on the ground in EE are saying or doing things that seem to go against our principles and instincts? What takes precedence?Most of us are detached from the realities on the ground in eastern Europe. No sense expecting otherwise.
It runs through it like the name of the resort in a stick of seaside rock, from the title to the conclusion. I think we can excuse the tenor of the piece a little because it’s emotionally close to home for her. It’s reasonable to be angry and fearful about a war on the border of ones family’s home.i don't really think i consider myself a 'revolutionary' any more lol. I didn't get that from her piece at all tbh, no doubt I'd find things to disagree with her on but I didn't get that sort of idpol focused vibe from it at all.
Thanks AA. That’s great.Something we can do is support non-state initiatives to help those in Ukraine and those fleeing.
This is a crowdfunder for an ambulance convoy for Ukraine. Please give serious thought to donating if you can and sharing. They need money for fuel and any other supplies. It's in French but I managed to donate to it :
Ambulance Anti War Convoy - Leetchi.com
And this to help at the border. Please donate and share if you can :
Ukraine border relief. Depart 15th April.
We are private individuals who wish to bring comfort and sanctuary to those who are displaced by a war not of their making. We aim to supply food, medical supplies and transport. Why? That is simple. Because we can. How could we not?fundrazr.com
Well there's two separate questions aren't there?But that's one of the tensions here, innit, what do we do when people more plugged into the realities on the ground in EE are saying or doing things that seem to go against our principles and instincts? What takes precedence?
It's a dirty job but someone's gotta do it.Reckon you might be overthinking this a little.
But that point (as expressed in that article) is to welcome nato support. And we’re thick if we don’t understand why they’d want that. It is, at best, patronising shit. At worst it’s simply falling in with the imperialist power that isn’t directly oppressing you. It is the same old ‘you haven’t lived it so don’t dare make any comment’ Such falling in behind your enemies enemy is hardly new (see kropotkin in ww1), but it is bollocks.Reckon you might be overthinking this a little. My takeaway of that particular point in the Freedom piece, is that the Western left in general should pay more attention to local voices in the parts of the world they insist on talking about. Maybe that's a trite and obvious point to some, but I guess it still needs listening to.
those who only have a hammer tend to see nailsYou lot are just as captivated by IDpol as anyone lol (see the brexit wars and endless arguments about what food is middle class etc).
I think that's a fair point TBH although it seemed to be saying why NATO support was popular or preferable to not joining it as opposed to saying it was unequivocally a good thing. I also wondered what eg Serbian readers would think reading that as at points it did seem to lump former communist countries in together.But that point (as expressed in that article) is to welcome nato support. And we’re thick if we don’t understand why they’d want that. It is, at best, patronising shit. At worst it’s simply falling in with the imperialist power that isn’t directly oppressing you. It is the same old ‘you haven’t lived it so don’t dare make any comment’ Such falling in behind your enemies enemy is hardly new (see kropotkin in ww1), but it is bollocks.
That piece is well shared because ‘fuck leftist westsplaining’ is a cracking phrase (that I’ve now seen picked up by a couple of western b52 liberals) whereas the other one is incoherent and explicitly goes along with the othering of Russians (and, by default, of Ukrainians from the Russian perspective) which is just shameful.
Something I've been thinking about, in the debate between the defeatist nwbcw internationalist leftist westsplainers vs the defencist anarcho-nationalists, or however we want to frame it, is:
Obv, the strength of the Ukrainian far-right is overstated by murderous dicks for shitty purposes. But they do exist (I think that possibly one of the worst bits of the gibberish is how close it came to denying that), and they're stronger than we'd like. They definitely came out in a strengthened position after 2014 because (to borrow a well-worn lefty cliche), they were seen as being "the best fighters" against Yanukovych, and then against the DPR/LPR/Russian imperialism. In contrast, in Belarus, while the anarcho movement there isn't massive, I think they're able to have a disproportionate influence because people who might not agree with everything or even much of what anarchists say still respect them as being serious, dedicated, militant fighters against the Lukashenko regime.
Anyway, Ukrainian nazis came out of 2014 in a strengthened position and I think there's a very real chance they'll be able to do the same from this conflict. Of course, the more RT-brained bellends conflate all resistance to the Russian invasion with nazism the more they help Azov's ability to make that argument, but that's by the by. Anyway, I think the more that non- or indeed anti-fascist forces take part in the resistance, the more they'll be able to contest the far-right's claims to be the real defenders of Ukraine or whatever.
And I can certainly see the arguments about why anarchists should not take part in national defence. No-one wants to be a bad Kropotkin. But what I'm trying to work out is, is there any way of applying the defeatist nwbcw position that isn't just completely abandoning the political field to the far-right at worst, and pro-NATO/EU neoliberals at best? Is it possible to exist as an independent political force during an invasion without being part of the resistance to the invasion?
I appreciate that since we're probably not going to be rushing to form the U75 Column either way, this is all a bit speculative and abstract. But still.
Yes, the fash elements in Ukraine did come out of 2014 in a stronger position, at least initially. Conversely, the anarchists seemed to come out of 2014 much worse off. As there's no strong class or social movements in Ukraine to speak of, and as anarchists have not really been in a position to encourage or participate in the building of any meaningful social movement, then they're left with the options of either fighting to defend the liberal/conservative/bourgeois nation state (nationalism, a terrible option) or fighting to defend friends, families and what's left of their communities (an understandable and preferable, though still terrible, option). Unfortunately, that 1000 Red Flags article has pretty much gone straight for the first option. Because nationalism is now very well established in Ukraine, and without the existence of mass social movements there, then I see no possibility of an independent (non-nationalist) force at present. So, it leaves us with anarcho-trenchism as an adjunct to the national resistance... or back to no war but the class war.Something I've been thinking about, in the debate between the defeatist nwbcw internationalist leftist westsplainers vs the defencist anarcho-nationalists, or however we want to frame it, is:
Obv, the strength of the Ukrainian far-right is overstated by murderous dicks for shitty purposes. But they do exist (I think that possibly one of the worst bits of the gibberish is how close it came to denying that), and they're stronger than we'd like. They definitely came out in a strengthened position after 2014 because (to borrow a well-worn lefty cliche), they were seen as being "the best fighters" against Yanukovych, and then against the DPR/LPR/Russian imperialism. In contrast, in Belarus, while the anarcho movement there isn't massive, I think they're able to have a disproportionate influence because people who might not agree with everything or even much of what anarchists say still respect them as being serious, dedicated, militant fighters against the Lukashenko regime.
Anyway, Ukrainian nazis came out of 2014 in a strengthened position and I think there's a very real chance they'll be able to do the same from this conflict. Of course, the more RT-brained bellends conflate all resistance to the Russian invasion with nazism the more they help Azov's ability to make that argument, but that's by the by. Anyway, I think the more that non- or indeed anti-fascist forces take part in the resistance, the more they'll be able to contest the far-right's claims to be the real defenders of Ukraine or whatever.
And I can certainly see the arguments about why anarchists should not take part in national defence. No-one wants to be a bad Kropotkin. But what I'm trying to work out is, is there any way of applying the defeatist nwbcw position that isn't just completely abandoning the political field to the far-right at worst, and pro-NATO/EU neoliberals at best? Is it possible to exist as an independent political force during an invasion without being part of the resistance to the invasion?
I appreciate that since we're probably not going to be rushing to form the U75 Column either way, this is all a bit speculative and abstract. But still.
I mean, I can see the logic of that, but you'd hope that the views and ideas we form would have some practical relevance to those who are being bombed and shelled? If they're not, it feels like that's a bit of a flaw?As we have the luxury of being able to form our views without being bombed, shelled and shot at, I think we have a responsibility to use that luxury.
but you'd hope that the views and ideas we form would have some practical relevance to those who are being bombed and shelled? If they're not, it feels like that's a bit of a flaw?
Is there any evidence that our views can be better because of that luxury?As we have the luxury of being able to form our views without being bombed, shelled and shot at, I think we have a responsibility to use that luxury.
yeh ideas are generally improved by a spot of exercise and necessity rather than swilling tea in armchairs is famously the mother of invention.Is there any evidence that our views can be better because of that luxury?
Is there any evidence that our views can be better because of that luxury?
I meant to but the " round better myself.Depends what you mean by "better" I guess.
Regardless, most of us currently have that luxury and it will frame our views whether we acknowledge it or not.