The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[chilango]

thing is it's all very well saying stuff like 'no war but the class war' (and i agree) but its a bit of an abstract slogan in this context, since there is a war there, whether you like it or not. and advocating that people didn't fight or fought 'on a class basis' would basically be taken to mean surrender to russia (or ukraine in parts of the donbass which were affected by stuff like the ATO pre-2022) in some cases. idk what the answer is but i think people need to recognise that.

Absolutely.

The flip side is recognising that most of us are not in this war. We are (mostly) commenting from the sidelines.

I don't know "the answer" is either. I doubt there is one. I also doubt whether "we" need to find it.

 

[bimble]

just putting this here.

 

[frogwoman]

Well yeah exactly. There's nothing any of us can do from here tbh beyond practical stuff, so imo it's a good idea to comment from the perspective of someone trying to understand it rather than make the facts fit the theory lol (not saying you're doing that).

I don't think the 'we have the luxury of not being bombed so should use it' is a great argument tho sorry mate. You could use that argument for stuff like why men should be the ones talking feminism and womens oppression(which has actually happened on the left). Not sure we need any more of that tbh. If nothing else it's a massive reason why people are so fed up with traditional leninist and anarchist approaches.

 

[Lurdan]

just putting this here.

The 'Workers' Front Of Ukraine' were one of the signatories of this statement last November.
In Defense of Communism: Communist Parties on the situation in Donbass: "Fascism can’t be healed!"

I'd be astonished if the Russian invasion didn't lead to a growth in nationalist sentiment in general and of extreme right wing forms of it to some degree. However if I was looking for an indicator of the scale of that growth I don't think I'd be wasting my time with USSR fanboys who believe:

Over the past seven years, Ukraine has turned into a real fascist state. It began with destruction of monuments to Lenin and other revolutionary and Soviet leaders, (...)

 

[chilango]

Well yeah exactly. There's nothing any of us can do from here tbh beyond practical stuff, so imo it's a good idea to comment from the perspective of someone trying to understand it rather than make the facts fit the theory lol (not saying you're doing that).

I don't think the 'we have the luxury of not being bombed so should use it' is a great argument tho sorry mate. You could use that argument for stuff like why men should be the ones talking feminism and womens oppression(which has actually happened on the left). Not sure we need any more of that tbh. If nothing else it's a massive reason why people are so fed up with traditional leninist and anarchist approaches.

Yeah, it's (for us) neither about making the facts fit the theory, nor making the theory fit the facts. It's about taking the time to figure the parameters of both out, and ways of approaching them.

The "luxury of not being bombed" applies, imho, to the above. It's not about telling the people who are being bombed what to do or how to do it. It's about being able to look at think about wars in other places - without being participants. I don't think that's comparable to men talking about feminism, but certainly get the concern you raise!

So, yeah, as you say it's about trying to understand stuff.

 

[frogwoman]

The objectionable IDpol related stuff I've seen tends to be going on about how the only reason people care about Ukraine is the fact that 'they're white' with the implication that nobody should care about or just generally tone deaf trying to fit US issues of privilege and oppression onto a completely different context.

I have one or two issues with some of the stuff I've seen saying that they want to help refugees but prioritise eg LGBT people for places to stay too, although I think it comes from a good place.

 

[deeyo]

i've been reading some luxemburg & liebknecht stuff from the first world war & much of it still rings true.


'so long as imperialistic world policies determine and regulate the inner and the outer life of a nation, there can be no "national self-determination" neither in war nor in peace.'

'the socialist proletariat cannot renounce the class struggle and international solidarity, either in war or in peace, without committing suicide'

'the class action of the proletariat of all countries, both in war and in peace, must be aimed at the main goal of combatting imperialism and preventing wars.'

'the immediate task of socialism shall be the intellectual liberation of the proletariat from the guardianship of the bourgeoisie as manifest in the influence of nationalistic ideology.'

and yeah,, we all know what happened to rosa & karl.

doesn't mean they were wrong, though.

it's 'workers of the world - unite!' not 'workers of the world - cut each others throats off!'

Karl Liebknecht: Self-Determination of Nations and Self-Defense

Karl Liebknecht: Self-Determination of Nations and Self-Defense

www.marxists.org

Rosa Luxemburg: Either Or (1916)

Rosa Luxemburg: Either Or (1916)

www.marxists.org

 

[bluescreen]

Not sure this is the best place to post it, but here's a very long thread from a leftish 'progressive' Finn explaining why he supports Finland joining NATO. A lot of history in the thread. He's thoughtful and well-informed, and alarmed.

 

[Dystopiary]

i've been reading some luxemburg & liebknecht stuff from the first world war & much of it still rings true.


'so long as imperialistic world policies determine and regulate the inner and the outer life of a nation, there can be no "national self-determination" neither in war nor in peace.'

'the socialist proletariat cannot renounce the class struggle and international solidarity, either in war or in peace, without committing suicide'

'the class action of the proletariat of all countries, both in war and in peace, must be aimed at the main goal of combatting imperialism and preventing wars.'

'the immediate task of socialism shall be the intellectual liberation of the proletariat from the guardianship of the bourgeoisie as manifest in the influence of nationalistic ideology.'

and yeah,, we all know what happened to rosa & karl.

doesn't mean they were wrong, though.

it's 'workers of the world - unite!' not 'workers of the world - cut each others throats off!'

Karl Liebknecht: Self-Determination of Nations and Self-Defense

Karl Liebknecht: Self-Determination of Nations and Self-Defense

www.marxists.org

Rosa Luxemburg: Either Or (1916)

Rosa Luxemburg: Either Or (1916)

www.marxists.org

Which is great until you're literally under attack, with your life and family's lives at stake. Nobody should be telling these people to roll over and cede their lives because praxis.

 

[Serge Forward]

Which is great until you're literally under attack, with your life and family's lives at stake. Nobody should be telling these people to roll over and cede their lives because praxis.

I'm not sure if anyone is. Just because people criticise nationalism doesn't mean they're saying people shouldn't defend themselves.

 

[deeyo]

Which is great until you're literally under attack, with your life and family's lives at stake. Nobody should be telling these people to roll over and cede their lives because praxis.

i don't - and i don't think liebknecht & luxemburg did either.

but one of the main goals of socialists back then was to end all wars - to build strong anti-militaristic (not pacifist) workers movements that would stop their respective ruling classes from starting wars.

sometimes it worked.
when norway dissolved the union with sweden 1904 large parts of the swedish ruling class wanted to crush the revolt. they failed - popular opinion was massively against a war with norway. swedish socialists like zeth höglund spread about a hundred thousand copies of the pamphlet 'put down your arms' & spent 6 months in prison for sentences like ' the guns - if they should be pointed at anyone - shouldn't be pointed at the norwegians'

 

[nastyned]

Which is great until you're literally under attack, with your life and family's lives at stake. Nobody should be telling these people to roll over and cede their lives because praxis.

I don't get how 'join the Ukrainian war effort' is seen by many as a more sensible option than 'No War But The Class War'. Being badly trained, if at all, and thrown into the meat grinder doesn't make sense to me compared to keep your head down if possible, avoid conscription, escape if you can, look after your friends, family and fellow workers. This isn't our fight! Given the balance of forces building an independent working class movement where you live and work will be difficult but there will be opportunities. And even militarily I would have though state vs state trench warfare is the last thing you want to be getting into and making Ukraine unoccupiable (e.g. civil disobedience, strikes, sabotage, guerrilla warfare) would make more sense.

 

[frogwoman]

It's not that it's more sensible, I'd love to be proved wrong but I cant see how a lot of the proposals being talked about are anything more than a fantasy atm and there's a lot of good reasons why a lot of Ukrainians would rather live under that regime, corrupt and imperfect as it is, than the Russian one, the very limited democracy and ability to force ones leaders out being quite an important part of it imo.

Right now people saying en masse 'this isn't our fight' when Putin has repeatedly made his intentions clear is blatantly not going to happen.

 

[frogwoman]

Trust me I'd love to be proved wrong. I'm not saying this to have a go but I think a lot of this sort of stuff is best used when trying to oppose a drive to a war that might happen if you see what I mean? Like it's the sort of thing that is best done on the ground months or even years in advance not after the horse has already bolted iyswim

 

[LDC]

I'm not sure if anyone is. Just because people criticise nationalism doesn't mean they're saying people shouldn't defend themselves.

Hmmm. I have been arguing with a couple of people recently who are saying pretty much exactly that. Their position (short version) is that Ukrainian people refuse to side with either the Ukrainian and Russian States, and should leave or hide, then let the Russians take over, then organize the working class in workplaces under Russian occupation.

It's a pretty standard left communist position isn't it?

 

[LDC]

I don't get how 'join the Ukrainian war effort' is seen by many as a more sensible option than 'No War But The Class War'. Being badly trained, if at all, and thrown into the meat grinder doesn't make sense to me compared to keep your head down if possible, avoid conscription, escape if you can, look after your friends, family and fellow workers. This isn't our fight! Given the balance of forces building an independent working class movement where you live and work will be difficult but there will be opportunities. And even militarily I would have though state vs state trench warfare is the last thing you want to be getting into and making Ukraine unoccupiable (e.g. civil disobedience, strikes, sabotage, guerrilla warfare) would make more sense.

Because there's more complexity than being solely either the Ukrainian war effort and the Russian attack. Look at all the civilians getting armed to defend their homes and lives etc. Is there nothing in that we can relate to and support? And all the other things you mention (strikes, sabotage, etc.) can happen as well, alongside armed resistance, and also after if the resistance fails too, it's not either/or. I'm not sure how you'd sell 'it isn't our fight' to many people getting bombed etc. in Ukraine now tbh, do you?

"Working class comrades on the barricades, refuse to fight the on the side of any bourgeois State! Lay down your weapons, flee to the bunkers, and read up on theory! We will emerge after to build a glorious working class movement to truly overthrow global capitalism!"

I think there's a pretty good argument that even if that's your political position, emerging from your little bunker post-occupation clutching your leaflets about how we now need to now build a independent working class movement to resist the Russian occupation to give out to the remaining people left who fought for their homes, workplaces, families, and friends against the invading forces might be looked upon slightly incredulously.

 

[frogwoman]

Some of the posts on this thread remind me of that story of the SPGB guy on a demo about the miners strike or something with a placard saying 'This demonstration is useless'.

 

[nastyned]

Because there's more complexity than being solely either the Ukrainian war effort and the Russian attack. Look at all the civilians getting armed to defend their homes and lives etc. Is there nothing in that we can related to and support? And all the other things you mention (strikes, sabotage, etc.) can happen as well, alongside armed resistance, and also after if the resistance fails too, it's not either/or. I'm not sure how you'd sell 'it isn't our fight' to many people getting bombed etc. in Ukraine now tbh, do you?

I think there's a pretty good argument that even if that's your political position, emerging from your little bunker post-occupation clutching your leaflets about how we now need to now build a independent working class movement to resist the Russian occupation to give out to the remaining people left who fought for their homes, workplaces, families, and friends against the invading forces might be looked upon slightly incredulously.

sigh I'm not actually saying that though. I don't know why it seems to happen about this war but I had people on another forum making ridiculous interpretations of what I write. I suppose I might just not write very well though. :-(

I'm saying that joining the Ukrainian military is a bad idea, there's better things you can do with you life and I've given examples. I don't see why this is considered problematic.

 

[LDC]

Fair enough nastyned, I quoted you, but maybe I was more replying to that broader tendency that I feel like I've been arguing with for days now.

 

[JimW]

People are under attack because of some wanky nationalist idea of the sacred Russosphere or whatever it is; there's never been a better time to criticise nationalism. Would still shoot the invaders first and during the discussion though.

 

[chilango]

Kinda does beg the question though doesn't it? if the "no war but the class war" line is to be dropped the moment there's an actual war then what was the point in it in the first place?

 

[RD2003]

If the Russians win, they will snuff out any emerging independent working class movement altogether. If the Ukrainians do so, it will be in conditions which enable them to neutralise it, and turn a blind eye when it's attacked by an inevitably strenghtened far-right. That is in the unlikely event of there being any widespread interest in one anyway.

Either way, it means no mass independent working class movement in Ukraine as long as most of us remain alive, or probably beyond.

 

[LDC]

People are under attack because of some wanky nationalist idea of the sacred Russosphere or whatever it is; there's never been a better time to criticise nationalism. Would still shoot the invaders first and during the discussion though.
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Totally, I admire and think it's important to not get sweep up in the nationalism of either side, and to maintain eyes on wider political goals etc etc.

I think it's possible to keep a 'no war but the class war' line, but also accept the need to fight now sometimes. Maybe that's contradictory/messy politically but meh, it's a slogan not a political manifesto.

It also makes much more sense in the context of the Russian anti-war movement than it does on the ground among neighbours in Ukraine for example.

 

[frogwoman]

It's the kind of rhetoric that would be marginally more useful in Russia itself rather than in a place that is actually being bombed to smithereens.

 

[chilango]

It's the kind of rhetoric that would be marginally more useful in Russia itself rather than in a place that is actually being bombed to smithereens.

What about here?

 

[LDC]

What about here?

I think what we do here is largely irrelevant tbh. (Although I think there are going to be massive repercussions here (living costs etc.) that we will have to deal with and do something about.) But aside from that I also think we can split what we do between what we think about what's going on internally in Russia, and what's going on in Ukraine. And it makes more sense in the Russian context, and a lot less sense in the Ukrainian one maybe?

 

[frogwoman]

What about here?

I don't think whatever we say here is going to have much of an effect honestly. I don't think it's of much significance, unless anyone is going to fight for the Ukrainian or Russian army theres nothing we can actually do beyond practical solidarity, and those who could actually benefit from seeing these discussions face the prospect of 15 years in jail for calling the war a war etc.

 

[YouSir]

It's the kind of rhetoric that would be marginally more useful in Russia itself rather than in a place that is actually being bombed to smithereens.

Hard to frame and implement maybe, still useful though I think. Sure I don't doubt that the far right and nationalists in Ukraine still have half an eye on the future as they fight. A future where they're going to reframe the war, their own role in it and the resources/experiences they gain from it as weapons to progress their political ideals. If there's is the only narrative that emerges then that'll lead where it leads.

 

[likesfish]

Problem with niether NATO or Moscow.

Moscow doesn't want neutrality it wants a vassal state Putin wants Warsaw Pact 2.0

 

[frogwoman]

Hard to frame and implement maybe, still useful though I think. Sure I don't doubt that the far right and nationalists in Ukraine still have half an eye on the future as they fight. A future where they're going to reframe the war, their own role in it and the resources/experiences they gain from it as weapons to progress their political ideals. If there's is the only narrative that emerges then that'll lead where it leads.

Definitely agree with that. Which is why making anti fascist arguments within the army itself is going to be important on the ground, I'd have thought that many Ukrainian anarchists are probably already doing that.