The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[YouSir]

No. Just that sometimes wars are waged with genocidal intent, or potentially so. if you are being attacked it's maybe too late for such a mobilisation and analysis can wait till later. At least that's how those in the firing line may well see it.

Do you think this is a war of genocidal intent?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I think we need to be careful chucking terms like "genocidal" into the mix.

I was being careful. That's why I said 'sometimes' and 'potentially'.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Do you think this is a war of genocidal intent?

How should I know what Putin intends? Genocidal behaviour does have precedent in Russia and that is how many Ukrainians may be perceiving it. At the very least Putin would seem to be intent on destroying any distinctive notion of a Ukrainian culturural identity.

 

[YouSir]

How should I know what Putin intends? Genocidal behaviour does have precedent in Russia and that is how many Ukrainians may be perceiving it. At the very least Putin would seem to be intent on destroying any distinctive notion of a Ukrainian culturural identity.

Genocidal behaviour has precedent in a load of countries, including half of those supporting Ukraine*. Cultural erasure too. Seems like a completely arbitrary line to follow, one based solely on 'the Russians do that sort of thing, don't they'.

*Including Ukraine too, for that matter.

 

[chilango]

I was being careful. That's why I said 'sometimes' and 'potentially'.

Yeah, that's not enough of caveat tbh. Genocide is a heavy word and its use (however prefaced) starts to do a lot of work in how we think and react.

 

[kebabking]

I think we need to be careful chucking terms like "genocidal" into the mix.

I think that's true, but I think we also need to be wary of throwing it out just because we really don't want it to be true for entirely understandable reasons.

I don't believe that Putin is motivated by the kind of genocidal racial hatred that motivated Hitler for example, but I think he genuinely believes that Ukraine and Ukrainians belong in the Greater Russian family, and not as head of the household.

That may not fit our definition of genocidal, but if you're in Ukraine, and facing an army that believes you belong to them, that your don't have the right (ability?) to make decisions about your country, and which genuinely believes it has a right/duty to flatten your cities with artillery should you go beyond the limits they set for you, then you might have a different, and rather urgent, definition of genocide.

Particularly if you've experienced two genocides/catastrophes in living memory.

 

[YouSir]

I think that's true, but I think we also need to be wary of throwing it out just because we really don't want it to be true for entirely understandable reasons.

I don't believe that Putin is motivated by the kind of genocidal racial hatred that motivated Hitler for example, but I think he genuinely believes that Ukraine and Ukrainians belong in the Greater Russian family, and not as head of the household.

That may not fit our definition of genocidal, but if you're in Ukraine, and facing an army that believes you belong to them, that your don't have the right (ability?) to make decisions about your country, and which genuinely believes it has a right/duty to flatten your cities with artillery should you go beyond the limits they set for you, then you might have a different, and rather urgent, definition of genocide.

Particularly if you've experienced two genocides/catastrophes in living memory.

That's redefining 'Genocide' to cover virtually every expansionist war ever though. Which is a discussion you could have, I suppose, but as far as where we are now goes that term has meaning and unless someone has some evidence to the contrary, it doesn't apply here. Look on the other side, Russia is happily accusing Ukraine of committing genocide as a means to legitimise the war and dehumanise the victims - doubt anyone here would applaud their random use of the term.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Genocidal behaviour has precedent in a load of countries, including half of those supporting Ukraine*. Cultural erasure too. Seems like a completely arbitrary line to follow, one based solely on 'the Russians do that sort of thing, don't they'.

*Including Ukraine too, for that matter.

I'm not being arbitrary at all. The Russian state has been like this in very recent times. It carries out its actions 'at home' and accompanies its actions with complete denial. I don't blame 'the Russians' but the Russian state and army. As I said before Russia is not unique but is at an extreme.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Yeah, that's not enough of caveat tbh. Genocide is a heavy word and its use (however prefaced) starts to do a lot of work in how we think and react.

It's use should have been more prevalent with regards to the Russian empire, under the Tsars, the Soviets and Mr. Putin.

 

[Raheem]

This is a lie isn't it. Didn't they cheer on saddam and islamists in 'raq'n'stan on anti-imperialist grounds? They were toxic loons then and they're toxic loons now.

Shouldn't they have been making placards telling Saddam to surrender for the sake of peace?

 

[chilango]

I think that's true, but I think we also need to be wary of throwing it out just because we really don't want it to be true for entirely understandable reasons.

I don't believe that Putin is motivated by the kind of genocidal racial hatred that motivated Hitler for example, but I think he genuinely believes that Ukraine and Ukrainians belong in the Greater Russian family, and not as head of the household.

That may not fit our definition of genocidal, but if you're in Ukraine, and facing an army that believes you belong to them, that your don't have the right (ability?) to make decisions about your country, and which genuinely believes it has a right/duty to flatten your cities with artillery should you go beyond the limits they set for you, then you might have a different, and rather urgent, definition of genocide.

Particularly if you've experienced two genocides/catastrophes in living memory.

Of course.

....but there is, or at least I think there should be, a difference between understanding why some in Ukraine might be fearful that a genocide may be being launched and uncritically accepting genocide as an accurate, or default, description of what's happening.

It's important because as a word it wields enormous power, one that can (and is) deployed for all kinds of nefarious purposes.

 

[Dystopiary]

i don't - and i don't think liebknecht & luxemburg did either.

but one of the main goals of socialists back then was to end all wars - to build strong anti-militaristic (not pacifist) workers movements that would stop their respective ruling classes from starting wars.

sometimes it worked.
when norway dissolved the union with sweden 1904 large parts of the swedish ruling class wanted to crush the revolt. they failed - popular opinion was massively against a war with norway. swedish socialists like zeth höglund spread about a hundred thousand copies of the pamphlet 'put down your arms' & spent 6 months in prison for sentences like ' the guns - if they should be pointed at anyone - shouldn't be pointed at the norwegians'

OK. I hadn't heard of him before, thanks for that.

 

[hitmouse]

That's just it though isn't it?

We can merrily put forward a nwbcw position or advocate forming some kinda international brigade or call for NATO airstrikes to support the Azov Battalion (or the million and one eminently more sensible positions in between ) and by and large they will be of little significance to what's happening in Ukraine or Russia or Finland etc etc.

So, what does that leave us - "the Left in Britain" with?

• Practical Solidarity - and how to organise and provide that in tune with our beliefs

I mean, that's one of the big questions innit, what that means. To quote from LDC's post earlier:

From elsewhere, for people's info....

Thought I add some updates on the incredible organising that appears to be happening transnationally and within Ukraine — i say appears because apart from trusted comrades of comrades, all I have to go by is them.

Firstly, comrades in Ukraine within the anarchist/anti-authoritarian movement — its small but growing and very active. The main forces are Rev Dia (a supposedly anarchist militia) and operation solidarity (also affiliated to another new anarchist militia front called 'resistance committee). Rev Dia is by and large ostracised from the movement due to past violent attacks, a "horrible group" according to one comrade inc. an attempted murder on one of their own comrades,but in this moment they seem to be working together in some way, there seems consensus across the movement for armed resistance along side the mutual aid work.

MEDIAS :

• @Theblackheadquarter | Linktree
• @operation.solidarity | Linktree

DONATIONS :

• Donation - Anarchist Black Cross Dresden
• Donate – Operation Solidarity

Like, even if we're not capable of raising vast amounts of money in the grand scheme of things, "we" probably are collectively capable of raising the sort of sums that might make a considerable difference to a scrappy anarchist force. And that's where you can have some actual practical conversations - would people feel comfortable raising money for Resistance Committee/Black Headquarter? What about Operation Solidarity, they seem to be like a civilian/mutual aid kind of thing, but one that is very much affiliated to Resistance Committee?

I'll run this up the pole and see who salutes it....

Isn't it interesting that this entire thread is about how 'the left' either should respond within its ideology (ideologies) or can move forward within/take advantage of, the situation, but absolutely nothing about what 'the left' might learn from it?

Nothing about questioning principles or the implementation of those principles, nothing about how this tests hypothesis, nothing about 'we may need to look again at...'.

I mean, I think that's a bit unfair, I think one of the big tensions running through this whole thread is people trying to come to terms with how this tests our principles/hypotheses. For those of us who are anti-war, and usually take that seriously as meaning that you don't take sides in a war between countries, seeing the reaction from Ukrainians is a test to those principles, and now the challenge is working out how to respond in a way that's not just "I'm not listening to you, you should be more like Rosa Luxemburg instead" but also isn't "OK I have abandoned all my previous beliefs and now I'm in favour of NATO invading Russia". It is very much a process of questioning, or at least it is for me anyway.

There is also a big question to be had about "lesser evils" - like, I don't think there's a neat answer to this one, I'm sure we can all agree that there's plenty of times that "lesser evilism" should be fucked off, but then there are also times when you do actually have to pick a lesser evil, I don't think (m)any of us are such pure ultra-lefts that we'd say there was absolutely nothing to choose between the allies and Hitler, I reckon we'd mostly agree that Hong Kong carrying on like it is now would still be shit but also much better than being completely absorbed into China and so on. So like how great does the difference between two evils have to be to matter, and how far will you go in defence of a lesser evil - or at least in fighting the greater one while ignoring the lesser one for the time being - is a live question, I think. Something you can't really say in advance and that has to be answered with an eye to the specifics.

 

[LDC]

I mean, that's one of the big questions innit, what that means. To quote from LDC's post earlier:

Like, even if we're not capable of raising vast amounts of money in the grand scheme of things, "we" probably are collectively capable of raising the sort of sums that might make a considerable difference to a scrappy anarchist force. And that's where you can have some actual practical conversations - would people feel comfortable raising money for Resistance Committee/Black Headquarter? What about Operation Solidarity, they seem to be like a civilian/mutual aid kind of thing, but one that is very much affiliated to Resistance Committee?

I mean, I think that's a bit unfair, I think one of the big tensions running through this whole thread is people trying to come to terms with how this tests our principles/hypotheses. For those of us who are anti-war, and usually take that seriously as meaning that you don't take sides in a war between countries, seeing the reaction from Ukrainians is a test to those principles, and now the challenge is working out how to respond in a way that's not just "I'm not listening to you, you should be more like Rosa Luxemburg instead" but also isn't "OK I have abandoned all my previous beliefs and now I'm in favour of NATO invading Russia". It is very much a process of questioning, or at least it is for me anyway.

There is also a big question to be had about "lesser evils" - like, I don't think there's a neat answer to this one, I'm sure we can all agree that there's plenty of times that "lesser evilism" should be fucked off, but then there are also times when you do actually have to pick a lesser evil, I don't think (m)any of us are such pure ultra-lefts that we'd say there was absolutely nothing to choose between the allies and Hitler, I reckon we'd mostly agree that Hong Kong carrying on like it is now would still be shit but also much better than being completely absorbed into China and so on. So like how great does the difference between two evils have to be to matter, and how far will you go in defence of a lesser evil - or at least in fighting the greater one while ignoring the lesser one for the time being - is a live question, I think. Something you can't really say in advance and that has to be answered with an eye to the specifics.

A load of good and difficult questions there! I'm off to bed though.

 

[hitmouse]

Oh, and in terms of what do "the left" in a very vaguely defined sense do, ETUC/ITUC are calling for a European day of solidarity with Ukraine on the 15th:

Ukrainian unions giving food and shelter amid invasion – ETUC provides solidarity funds and mobilising actions

Ukrainian trade unions are providing food and shelter to people after the Russian invasion amid attacks which have left people’s homes, workplaces, and infrastructure badly damaged. The Federation of Trade Unions of Ukraine (FPSU) and Confederation of Free Trade Unions of Ukraine (KVPU) trade...

www.etuc.org

Only heard about it cos the TUC put out a thing postponing/cancelling the tory party demo and saying that instead:

Over the coming fortnight we will be mobilising trade unionists in support of the ITUC day of solidarity with Ukraine on 15 March.

Which is a statement released today, I would think that they might want to prioritise mobilising trade unionists for the 15th March over the next week or so and they can probably relax after next week, mobilising people for 15th March-wise, but then I'm not in charge of the TUC's calendar?

 

[emanymton]

So apparently the SWP are havering a meeting on 50 years of asian resistance in the UK. Or something like that.

I'm sure it is a very interesting topic. But I can't help but feel there is something else going on in the world they might want to talk about right now.

 

[Cid]

So apparently the SWP are havering a meeting on 50 years of asian resistance in the UK. Or something like that.

I'm sure it is a very interesting topic. But I can't help but feel there is something else going on in the world they might want to talk about right now.

Havering definitely seems an apt verb for an SWP meeting.

 

[Serge Forward]

To be fair to the SWP (and I really don't want to be ) if you've already planned and organised a meeting on a certain topic, and then some big world event comes up, it's not so good to drop everything and only discuss the most recent big thing in the news. Yes. what's happening in Ukraine is really important but we shouldn't forget everything else, and maybe '50 years of asian resistance' would be light relief from what's currently happening in the world.

Otherwise, fuck the SWP.

 

[hitmouse]

To be fair to the SWP (and I really don't want to be ) if you've already planned and organised a meeting on a certain topic, and then some big world event comes up, it's not so good to drop everything and only discuss the most recent big thing in the news. Yes. what's happening in Ukraine is really important but we shouldn't forget everything else, and maybe '50 years of asian resistance' would be light relief from what's currently happening in the world.

Otherwise, fuck the SWP.

Yep, fully agreed with that. Also whatever they have to say will probably be a bit daft so it's not like them not having their meeting on Ukraine will be a big loss. The more I think about it, the more unconvinced I am about the TUC postponing their Blackpool demo, seemingly cos of Ukraine?
eta: Unless the TUC are run by that Hull couple from the local newspaper headlines thread, in which case fair enough.

 

[Serge Forward]

Is it over-egging the pudding to see the TUC cancelling its price rises event as an echo of its role as a recruiting sergeant in WW1?

 

[Ĝasper]

RALLY – Russian Troops Out

Solidarity with Ukraine Rally 8:00 pm – GMT – 14 March. Join us to hear from Ukrainian resistance activists and voices from across the labour movement. Webinar Registration – Zoom…

ukrainesolidaritycampaign.org

 

[hitmouse]

Is it over-egging the pudding to see the TUC cancelling its price rises event as an echo of its role as a recruiting sergeant in WW1?

I mean, the other reason they've offered for cancelling it is that it clashes with the SUTR/UN antiracism day thing that happens on the other side of the country in London and always happens at the same time every year so they would always have known was happening then. So no idea what's going on there, seems like something dodgy's happening though.

 

[Serge Forward]

Meanwhile in Cologne there's a rally at the weekend for people to go and visit the properties (80 empty appartments) of the Russian state and demand a use for homeless, refugees and deserters. The slogan is "down with the weapons, give us the keys".

 

[Lurdan]

Interesting article by one of the Angry Workers about their internal discussions about Ukraine.

Fragments of a debate amongst AngryWorkers on the war in Ukraine - Angry Workers

 

[kebabking]

="Lurdan, post: 17581455, member: 60850"]
Interesting article by one of the Angry Workers about their internal discussions about Ukraine.

Fragments of a debate amongst AngryWorkers on the war in Ukraine - Angry Workers

Nah, it was interesting, in that it attempted to work through the horrible grinding noise of a number of long held moral and political principles smashing into the horror of a European land war, and each other.

Then it it got less interesting by abandoning that debate and dropping it in the 'too hard' box, in favour of a slogan salad of lefty favourites that ignored the whole thing..

You know that meme where the character has an idea that he wants to monetize, but doesn't know how, so just stands there in his underpants waiting for the money to roll in - and it doesn't? yeah, that.

 

[chilango]

Interesting article by one of the Angry Workers about their internal discussions about Ukraine.

Fragments of a debate amongst AngryWorkers on the war in Ukraine - Angry Workers

I thought that was a really thoughtful piece. Thank you.

 

[chilango]

Nah, it was interesting, in that it attempted to work through the horrible grinding noise of a number of long held moral and political principles smashing into the horror of a European land war, and each other.

Then it it got less interesting by abandoning that debate and dropping it in the 'too hard' box, in favour of a slogan salad of lefty favourites that ignored the whole thing..

You know that meme where the character has an idea that he wants to monetize, but doesn't know how, so just stands there in his underpants waiting for the money to roll in - and it doesn't? yeah, that.

That's the thing though isn't it?

There is no nice easy answer from a Leftist perspective. So you end up with a choice of doing nothing or doing the wrong thing.

 

[deeyo]

Nah, it was interesting, in that it attempted to work through the horrible grinding noise of a number of long held moral and political principles smashing into the horror of a European land war, and each other.

Then it it got less interesting by abandoning that debate and dropping it in the 'too hard' box, in favour of a slogan salad of lefty favourites that ignored the whole thing..

You know that meme where the character has an idea that he wants to monetize, but doesn't know how, so just stands there in his underpants waiting for the money to roll in - and it doesn't? yeah, that.

i read it quickly & liked it a lot, guess i stopped before 'the leaflet' .
saw you post & read it again. still liked the long debate/introduction. you might have a point about the leaflet, though.

too tired to think right now, will read it again tomorrow & try to reply to some other stuff too.

until then, please try to be a bit more like rosa luxemburg, all of you..

 

[kebabking]

That's the thing though isn't it?

There is no nice easy answer from a Leftist perspective. So you end up with a choice of doing nothing or doing the wrong thing.

And that's fine - the war itself, and the likely outcomes from it are going to run up against some dearly held beliefs, and those dearly held beliefs are going to rub up against each other: so for me the issues of support for self-determination, the avoidance of a conventional war that could go nuclear, concern over China's manoeuvring and positioning, the right thing to do versus the need to retain NATO cohesion, are all banging against each other with the certainty of those beliefs lying shattered on the ground like broken glass after a traffic accident.

And it's ok to say that. It's ok to say that where I end up is going to be a flawed, probably contradictory position with a fair bit of glossing over of the problems of that conclusion - but throwing your hands in the air and saying it's all too difficult so I'll ignore it and just concentrate on what's easier isn't politics, it's running away.

 

[Cid]

Yeah I'm not sure you can argue that 'doing nothing' is a neutral position.