The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[Smokeandsteam]

Yep, fully agreed with that. Also whatever they have to say will probably be a bit daft so it's not like them not having their meeting on Ukraine will be a big loss. The more I think about it, the more unconvinced I am about the TUC postponing their Blackpool demo, seemingly cos of Ukraine?
eta: Unless the TUC are run by that Hull couple from the local newspaper headlines thread, in which case fair enough.

This was raised at our regional meeting last night. According to the full timers, the TUC cancelled it because of perceived low levels of mobilisation by unions. I can’t be too critical as this was the first I’d even heard of it, but if we can’t get people on the street on this then things really are bad…

 

[hitmouse]

And that's fine - the war itself, and the likely outcomes from it are going to run up against some dearly held beliefs, and those dearly held beliefs are going to rub up against each other: so for me the issues of support for self-determination, the avoidance of a conventional war that could go nuclear, concern over China's manoeuvring and positioning, the right thing to do versus the need to retain NATO cohesion, are all banging against each other with the certainty of those beliefs lying shattered on the ground like broken glass after a traffic accident.

And it's ok to say that. It's ok to say that where I end up is going to be a flawed, probably contradictory position with a fair bit of glossing over of the problems of that conclusion - but throwing your hands in the air and saying it's all too difficult so I'll ignore it and just concentrate on what's easier isn't politics, it's running away.

I mean, I suppose two of the many things that keep banging against each other here is "that [position/line/view/whatever] wouldn't be much use in Ukraine" vs "but I don't live in Ukraine". I can't really blame the article's author for seeming to come down on the side of "I don't live in Ukraine, here's what I think might be useful to say to hospital workers here".

This was raised at our regional meeting last night. According to the full timers, the TUC cancelled it because of perceived low levels of mobilisation by unions. I can’t be too critical as this was the first I’d even heard of it, but if we can’t get people on the street on this then things really are bad…

Good to have that info. Although I can't work out whether the TUC cancelling it in the interests of national unity would've been more or less depressing than the TUC cancelling it because they can't run a decent mobilisation and accidentally ending up looking a bit like they'd cancelled it cos of national unity.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Good to have that info. Although I can't work out whether the TUC cancelling it in the interests of national unity would've been more or less depressing than the TUC cancelling it because they can't run a decent mobilisation and accidentally ending up looking a bit like they'd cancelled it cos of national unity.

When you've got shit politics and shit organising ability these tough calls have to be made. The TUC clearly decided to emphasize the former over the latter...

 

[chilango]

Yeah I'm not sure you can argue that 'doing nothing' is a neutral position.

Acts and omissions doctrine (if you'll forgive the philosophical detour) innit?

Doing vs. Allowing Harm (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

plato.stanford.edu

(Note: I'm not advocating 'doing nothing' just including it in the range of possible options for 'the Left')

 

[Cid]

Acts and omissions doctrine (if you'll forgive the philosophical detour) innit?

Doing vs. Allowing Harm (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

plato.stanford.edu

I'll forgive it, but I'm not engaging in it

(that way lies an endless spiral of philosophy 101)

 

[danny la rouge]

Absolutely astonishing outburst on the AF Twitter account in support of the Freedom articles and condemning our statement, btw.

There was nothing intemperate about our criticism of the pieces. It was a reasonable criticism of the world’s oldest anarchist paper publishing views of which we were critical.

 

[chilango]

Absolutely astonishing outburst on the AF Twitter account in support of the Freedom articles and condemning our statement, btw.

There was nothing intemperate about our criticism of the pieces. It was a reasonable criticism of the world’s oldest anarchist paper publishing views of which we were critical.

Indeed.

Even if one disagrees with the ACG's take on this it's still a perfectly valid perspective for big "A"" Anarchists to bring to the table.

 

[belboid]

‘fashjacket’ is an… interesting word

 

[Gramsci]

On doing harm.

Criticism of the "left" is ( and in practise I'm a left leaning Labour voter ) is that a not supporting Nato countries sending weapons is tantamount to sitting on the sidelines and letting Putin do what he wants.

I support sanctions but I'm really torn about sending weapons.

(In fact the West has been arming Ukraine for some time. So this proceeds the present invasion.)

I'm my opinion sending in more weapons could in long term cause more harm.

Saw Vice short doc on Ukraine militias on the frontilne at Donbass. Before the invasion. Leaving aside the politics of the militias this looked like a possible future for Ukraine. Emptied wrecked towns with groups of fighters. The young men growing up to see war as normal.

Sending more weapons in would help to destroy society in the long term.

There is a case that "doing nothing" is causing less harm imo.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm kind of the opposite tbh. I think maybe the sanctions are necessary but they are causing real suffering in Russia. I almost find sending weapons easier to swallow, we send them to Saudi and much more despicable regimes than Ukraine every day after all whereas some of the results of these sanctions are very hard to support. I know that's a bit weird mind you

 

[Sue]

‘fashjacket’ is an… interesting word

'You're such a fucking fashjacket.' I kinda like it. (Haven't seen the twitter or whatever.)

 

[NoXion]

I'm my opinion sending in more weapons could in long term cause more harm.

The Russian army is wrecking the place right now. Creating widows and orphans with mass artillery and air strikes is their strategy. I think that horse has already bolted and gone over the horizon.

 

[kebabking]

I'm kind of the opposite tbh. I think maybe the sanctions are necessary but they are causing real suffering in Russia. I almost find sending weapons easier to swallow, we send them to Saudi and much more despicable regimes than Ukraine every day after all whereas some of the results of these sanctions are very hard to support. I know that's a bit weird mind you

I rather take the view that anyone not finding themselves in uncomfortable moral and political positions, with their previous certainties spread around them like so much torn up tissue paper, isn't thinking hard enough about both the now, and the future.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

'You're such a fucking fashjacket.' I kinda like it. (Haven't seen the twitter or whatever.)

You talking to me, you fashjacket?

 

[hitmouse]

'You're such a fucking fashjacket.' I kinda like it. (Haven't seen the twitter or whatever.)

Dare I say... a Harrington?

 

[danny la rouge]

'You're such a fucking fashjacket.' I kinda like it. (Haven't seen the twitter or whatever.)

It’s a verb! To fashjacket.

It’s the kind of thing a hatstand would say.

 

[Sue]

You talking to me, you fashjacket?

If the fashjacket fits...

Eta. Oh, it's a verb.

 

[Gramsci]

Not sure about "certainties" being torn up. I'm basing my view on supplying weapons on previous recent conflicts and the present one.

"certainties" makes it sound like abstract theorising removed from reality.

 

[danny la rouge]

With regards to whether there are certainties, this brief run-through for philosophy students covers the headlines: 111. THE FOG OF WAR - Student Questions Arising From The Situation In Ukraine — Philosophy UNLEASHED

“We all want to be the “good” person, but we struggle both to define what we mean by “good” and, once defined, what actually constitutes achieving such “goodness”.

Being a philosophy teacher I am often asked big questions by my students. But this week more than others, I am finding it difficult to find the answers.”

Quite.

 

[Serge Forward]

‘fashjacket’ is an… interesting word

Something to do with baked potatoes?

 

[Serge Forward]

It’s a verb! To fashjacket.

It’s the kind of thing a hatstand would say.

To hatstand is also a verb now. Probably.

 

[belboid]

Something to do with baked potatoes?

Half baked at best

 

[hitmouse]

It’s a verb! To fashjacket.

Can't believe people didn't already know this, do they not teach you kids anything in school these days?

 

[Sue]

Can't believe people didn't already know this, do they not teach you kids anything in school these days?

I suspect it's been a while since some of us were at school...

 

[frogwoman]

Doesn't fashjacket mean depicting someone as being fash, like for example in a denazification campaign?

 

[belboid]

Doesn't fashjacket mean depicting someone as being fash, like for example in a denazification campaign?

That is what was implied I think, yes.

 

[belboid]

Tho Google images tells me it’s these

 

[danny la rouge]

Doesn't fashjacket mean depicting someone as being fash, like for example in a denazification campaign?

I can’t imagine ever using the word. It would be the same as me putting a baseball cap on backwards and slinging a skateboard over my shoulder.

I don’t, however, for the record, think the Freedom editor is a “fash”. For all that we have different opinions on some things, I happen to like her personally.

 

[frogwoman]

I can’t imagine ever using the word. It would be the same as me putting a baseball cap on backwards and slinging a skateboard over my shoulder.

I don’t, however, for the record, think the Freedom editor is a “fash”. For all that we have different opinions on some things, I happen to like her personally.

Yeah I think a lot of this is like weird generational differences that I'm gonna complain about cos I'm old.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah I think a lot of this is like weird generational differences that I'm gonna complain about cos I'm old.

bollocks are you auld