The Trump presidency

[DotCommunist]

With the greatest respect, you must be getting your information from "alternative" books, blogs, college campuses, American penpals with fringe political views, but definitely not from lived experience of the place.

What proportion of elected officials (local, state or national) have ever won seats on a ticket with the word "socialist" in their party name, or even included in their platform?

When British people use the term "liberal" they mean something totally different from what Americans mean. You do understand that, don't you?

so you are seriously going to ignore the entire history of american socialist and labour struggles including the largest internal ground war fought since the civil war? None of this is 'obscure lefty college history'. Its acknowledged historical facts. I don't want to say something rude to you so I shall just try to ask you to have a look at the history of american workers and the american left. You have no truth-claim for having grown up there. Thats not how it works. I appreciate you have a perspective first hand but I evaluate my sources. Heard of Pinkertons before?

and yes I know full well the dire misuse the word liberal has undergone in recent times but it has a particular, historical meaning. Long established in the political tradition it describes. Please don't assume that because someone has never been to america they are unaware of its history. And I'd like to thank myself for managing that without swearing, I dedicate this self award to my mum and god and all the fallen friends i once knew.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

With the greatest respect, you must be getting your information from "alternative" books, blogs, college campuses, American penpals with fringe political views, but definitely not from lived experience of the place.

What proportion of elected officials (local, state or national) have ever won seats on a ticket with the word "socialist" in their party name, or even included in their platform?

When British people use the term "liberal" they mean something totally different from what Americans mean. You do understand that, don't you?

Bingo.

 

[CRI]

out of curiosity have you done any research on the question, or is this off the top of your head?

I did in high school and college, and have read some stuff since, but I'm not an academic, not a scholar. That's not what I'm talking about here though. I'm talking about the impact of socialism on American political culture and decisions as manifest in every day life. Believe me, if I thought there was a hope of socialist principles having any serious influence, I wouldn't have emigrated. Outside some college campuses, counter-culture communes, Quaker or Unitarian Universalist worshipping groups, maybe some local councils in liberal parts of the country (usually more well-to-do as well), you won't get many people talking about socialism in a very positive light, or talking about it at all.

 

[DotCommunist]

What proportion of elected officials (local, state or national) have ever won seats on a ticket with the word "socialist" in their party name, or even included in their platform?

electoral politics is not the be all and end all given its a rigged and bought system but hey,
Kshama Sawant - Wikipedia

no doubt you'll go 'see, liberal enclave' but it is merely mentioned to show you haven't been paying attention. To your own history-recent history- that you repeatedly patronise others as 'not knowing' or being somehow unable to understand.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

electoral politics is not the be all and end all given its a rigged and bought system but hey,
Kshama Sawant - Wikipedia

You found.... one.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

.

 

[redsquirrel]

electoral politics is not the be all and end all given its a rigged and bought system but hey,
Kshama Sawant - Wikipedia

no doubt you'll go 'see, liberal enclave' but it is merely mentioned to show you haven't been paying attention. To your own history-recent history- that you repeatedly patronise others as 'not knowing' or being somehow unable to understand.

As you say stupid way of measuring but Debs got 6% of the vote in 1912, in the two 1910 UK GEs Labour got 7%. Anyway it's good to know that having 'Socialist' in the name of the party, or given some half arsed mention in your manifesto, is the important feature rather than the actions you take. Forward the socialist parties of Labour, the PS and the SPD!

 

[DotCommunist]

You found.... one.

'found' lol. I was enthused on reading about her ages ago. But your convinced everyones a wiki genius cos thats how you roll. could probably dig up some comment about her from me on here from a while back

which means american socialism never did and cannot ever exist clearly.

 

[teqniq]

“We have at most a year to defend American democracy, perhaps less“

 

[weltweit]

I haven't heard much talk of the wall for a while.

Perhaps after coming out all guns blazing in his first week he is now being a little more careful.

 

[spring-peeper]

I haven't heard much talk of the wall for a while.

Perhaps after coming out all guns blazing in his first week he is now being a little more careful.

He is in the process of getting the price down - he's a really good negotiator from what he says.



Right now, the wall on the north might be good - we are receiving record number of asylum seekers wandering across the borders.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

'found' lol. I was enthused on reading about her ages ago. But your convinced everyones a wiki genius cos thats how you roll. could probably dig up some comment about her from me on here from a while back

which means american socialism never did and cannot ever exist clearly.

None of which means that socialism has ever been a political philosophy with any longevity in US politics, apart from a small and dedicated cadre.

And whether you found Sawant just now, or knew of her before, is irrelevant to CRI's point that the election of socialists in the US, is rare as hen's teeth.

 

[CRI]

so you are seriously going to ignore the entire history of american socialist and labour struggles including the largest internal ground war fought since the civil war? None of this is 'obscure lefty college history'. Its acknowledged historical facts. I don't want to say something rude to you so I shall just try to ask you to have a look at the history of american workers and the american left. You have no truth-claim for having grown up there. Thats not how it works. I appreciate you have a perspective first hand but I evaluate my sources. Heard of Pinkertons before?

and yes I know full well the dire misuse the word liberal has undergone in recent times but it has a particular, historical meaning. Long established in the political tradition it describes. Please don't assume that because someone has never been to america they are unaware of its history. And I'd like to thank myself for managing that without swearing, I dedicate this self award to my mum and god and all the fallen friends i once knew.

Believe it or not, I majored in British History - although I didn't finish my degree because I ran out of money, got tired of working shit jobs while studying and buggered off over here to take my chances! That was back when British students still got grants and living allowances, ya lucky bastards. Despite my major, I'd never dare tell a person who had first hand experience of living in the UK that their lived experience is garbage because I have more "book learning." You'll notice I tend to talk about things here as "my observations," because although I've lived her more than 30 years, I don't have the same experience as someone who's been here all their lives.

But you go ahead and tell me that I'm full of crap and give yourself a nice pat for not swearing at me while you do it.

(and, they say Americans are big headed, sheesh!)

 

[redsquirrel]

Ah so we've gone from "taking root" to "longevity" and "election of" have we.

Are you really a lawyer? For someone who lies professionally I'd expect you to do a better job.

 

[DotCommunist]

None of which means that socialism has ever been a political philosophy with any longevity in US politics, apart from a small and dedicated cadre.

And whether you found Sawant just now, or knew of her before, is irrelevant to CRI's point that the election of socialists in the US, is rare as hen's teeth.

so? I explicitly stated that electoral politics is not the be all and end all. I merely pointed it out to show where he was ignorant of even his own modern political history. So put that in your pipe and smoke it. Socialists and elections lol. Its like talking to children sometimes, no rule but the the rule where the leftos are wrong. Never mind, you do obtuse regularly so I'll just put it down to that- I know damn well you aren't this stupid.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Why the hostility? We disagree on the impact of socialism on American culture. It's not something worth boosting one's blood pressure over.

 

[CRI]

“We have at most a year to defend American democracy, perhaps less“

Thanks for that. I'm reading similar predictions from others with experience of authoritarian regimes in South America and Central Europe as well. Before the election, people thought their gloom and doom predictions were preposterous. Still, many seem to be in denial of just how monumental the threat to the US is. Will there even be mid term elections in 2018 to fight at this rate? I thought this was a very telling line in the interview:

"Most Americans had a rule of law state for most of their lives, African Americans are an exception, and so most Americans think this will be there forever. They don’t get that a “disruption” can actually destroy much of what they take for granted. They have no notion what it means to destroy the state and how their lives would look like if the rule of law would no longer exist."

Even as the structures they thought immutable are crumbling around them, they're still largely in denial and impotent.

 

[DotCommunist]

Believe it or not, I majored in British History - although I didn't finish my degree because I ran out of money, got tired of working shit jobs while studying and buggered off over here to take my chances! That was back when British students still got grants and living allowances, ya lucky bastards. Despite my major, I'd never dare tell a person who had first hand experience of living in the UK that their lived experience is garbage because I have more "book learning." You'll notice I tend to talk about things here as "my observations," because although I've lived her more than 30 years, I don't have the same experience as someone who's been here all their lives.

But you go ahead and tell me that I'm full of crap and give yourself a nice pat for not swearing at me while you do it.

(and, they say Americans are big headed, sheesh!)

I don't give a toss what you majored in, you've flat blanked an entire portion of american history regarding labour struggle and socialism in the united states. Its ok to not know, its staggering to just wavey say it never happened or was only ever in liberal enclave college towns. Like I say, I don't want to be rude cos I am on a rule now about trying not to be a dick to other people but for real you are testing it. Don't stick me on ignore ffs, just agree to leave it





and go and read about american socialist history

 

[Old Spark]

Drudge and Hannity fed up already with the Republicans and Trump reports Fox News democrat commentator Juan Williams.

Its going to be a long four years.

Juan Williams: Trump and GOP collide with reality

 

[snadge]

With the greatest respect, you must be getting your information from "alternative" books, blogs, college campuses, American penpals with fringe political views, but definitely not from lived experience of the place.

What proportion of elected officials (local, state or national) have ever won seats on a ticket with the word "socialist" in their party name, or even included in their platform?

When British people use the term "liberal" they mean something totally different from what Americans mean. You do understand that, don't you?

You're as bad as fucking the orange joker with your alternative malarkey, we Brits know what liberal means and guess what, we know that it means communist in US, at least to the majority of your people.

We know the correct meaning, you believe the fake meaning, fucking live with it.


Guess what, I detest Liberals.

 

[DotCommunist]

Why the hostility? We disagree on the impact of socialism on American culture. It's not something worth boosting one's blood pressure over.

the marginalisation of socialist influences on america and britain continue to fuel the idea that the totality of capitalist miserabilism is all there can and will ever be- and to be frank I don't think you disagree out of much reading on the subject.

the denial of its impact, american counter culture ffs, (so where was your church before luther?) is ahistorical and if anything just ingrains this constant theme of The Can Be Nothing Else

I give you leave to disagree with me, but just this once

defeatism.

 

[belboid]

None of which means that socialism has ever been a political philosophy with any longevity in US politics, apart from a small and dedicated cadre.

And whether you found Sawant just now, or knew of her before, is irrelevant to CRI's point that the election of socialists in the US, is rare as hen's teeth.

To claim the history of socialism in the USA is confined to bourgeois liberals is just ahistorical nonsense tho. There were socialists elected as such in congress from 1910, representatives in many major cities. They led the general strike from St. Louis, Minneapolis, Seattle...Socialists were massive within dock works, transport, car making. Such was their strength, gangsters were brought in to kick them out and take over those industries. Oh, the irony. Read Farrell Dobbs' Teamsters trilogy, to get a taste of their strength.

 

[CRI]

I don't give a toss what you majored in, you've flat blanked an entire portion of american history regarding labour struggle and socialism in the united states. Its ok to not know, its staggering to just wavey say it never happened or was only ever in liberal enclave college towns. Like I say, I don't want to be rude cos I am on a rule now about trying not to be a dick to other people but for real you are testing it. Don't stick me on ignore ffs, just agree to leave it





and go and read about american socialist history

Do you know how much I learned about American Socialist History in grade school and high school? Zilch, zero, nada, nowt, nothing. I think we got one paragraph about what socialism was and one about communism in high school Government class, but that was it. I remember looking for books on socialism in the high school library for a term paper (I was discouraged from doing a paper discussing this) and guess what, there weren't any. That was in the 70's, and from talking with friends and family members who are teachers now, that's not changed.

So, if Americans aren't taught socialist theory or history in school, if books are hard to come by except in "college towns" or alternative book shops in big cities, if you still have churches preaching socialism as "evil," etc., pray tell, how can socialism have that much influence on American political and social culture?

 

[camouflage]

Do you know how much I learned about American Socialist History in grade school and high school? Zilch, zero, nada, nowt, nothing. I think we got one paragraph about what socialism was and one about communism in high school Government class, but that was it. I remember looking for books on socialism in the high school library for a term paper (I was discouraged from doing a paper discussing this) and guess what, there weren't any. That was in the 70's, and from talking with friends and family members who are teachers now, that's not changed.

So, if Americans aren't taught socialist theory or history in school, if books are hard to come by except in "college towns" or alternative book shops in big cities, if you still have churches preaching socialism as "evil," etc., pray tell, how can socialism have that much influence on American political and social culture?

by the steps taken to avoid thinking about it?

 

[snadge]

Do you know how much I learned about American Socialist History in grade school and high school? Zilch, zero, nada, nowt, nothing. I think we got one paragraph about what socialism was and one about communism in high school Government class, but that was it. I remember looking for books on socialism in the high school library for a term paper (I was discouraged from doing a paper discussing this) and guess what, there weren't any. That was in the 70's, and from talking with friends and family members who are teachers now, that's not changed.

So, if Americans aren't taught socialist theory or history in school, if books are hard to come by except in "college towns" or alternative book shops in big cities, if you still have churches preaching socialism as "evil," etc., pray tell, how can socialism have that much influence on American political and social culture?

Because it didn't, your country is corrupt too fuck, people were ostracised for collective actions.

Or the majority are thick as fuck. FFS the unions are run by fucking gangsters.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

the marginalisation of socialist influences on america and britain continue to fuel the idea that the totality of capitalist miserabilism is all there can and will ever be- and to be frank I don't think you disagree out of much reading on the subject.

the denial of its impact, american counter culture ffs, (so where was your church before luther?) is ahistorical and if anything just ingrains this constant theme of The Can Be Nothing Else
.

That's a non sequitur: "because one believes that the effect of socialism is marginal in the US, one must believe that capitalist miserabilism[whatever that is] is all that will ever be."

No, I don't agree with that.

Also: the american counter-culture was larger than socialist ideology, although socialist ideology definitely was a factor within some sectors of the counter-culture.

 

[CRI]

You're as bad as fucking the orange joker with your alternative malarkey, we Brits know what liberal means and guess what, we know that it means communist in US, at least to the majority of your people.

We know the correct meaning, you believe the fake meaning, fucking live with it.


Guess what, I detest Liberals.

Jesus man, I didn't say I "believe" in either meaning of the word "liberal." I was only pointing out that it means something different to most Americans, like rubber, biscuit, fanny.

 

[bimble]

just a little thing. These are the original words to Woody Guthrie's song This land is your land :

This Land Is Your Land
Words and Music by Woody Guthrie

This land is your land This land is my land
From California to the New York island;
From the red wood forest to the Gulf Stream waters
This land was made for you and Me.

As I was walking that ribbon of highway,
I saw above me that endless skyway:
I saw below me that golden valley:
This land was made for you and me.

I've roamed and rambled and I followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts;
And all around me a voice was sounding:
This land was made for you and me.

When the sun came shining, and I was strolling,
And the wheat fields waving and the dust clouds rolling,
As the fog was lifting a voice was chanting:
This land was made for you and me.

As I went walking I saw a sign there
And on the sign it said "No Trespassing."
But on the other side it didn't say nothing,
That side was made for you and me.

In the shadow of the steeple I saw my people,
By the relief office I seen my people;
As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking
Is this land made for you and me?

Nobody living can ever stop me,
As I go walking that freedom highway;
Nobody living can ever make me turn back
This land was made for you and me.


This, the real version, his intended lyrics, was never recorded, and the now famous one has all the critical words removed, the ones about private property and hunger. It was turned into america's best loved unofficial national anthem, once sanitised.

 

[redsquirrel]

Do you know how much I learned about American Socialist History in grade school and high school? Zilch, zero, nada, nowt, nothing. I think we got one paragraph about what socialism was and one about communism in high school Government class, but that was it. I remember looking for books on socialism in the high school library for a term paper (I was discouraged from doing a paper discussing this) and guess what, there weren't any. That was in the 70's, and from talking with friends and family members who are teachers now, that's not changed.

So, if Americans aren't taught socialist theory or history in school, if books are hard to come by except in "college towns" or alternative book shops in big cities, if you still have churches preaching socialism as "evil," etc., pray tell, how can socialism have that much influence on American political and social culture?

Do you know how much "British Socialist History" (or even British socialist history) I learned at school?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

To claim the history of socialism in the USA is confined to bourgeois liberals

Whoever said that.... wasn't me.

I'm happy to discuss these things with you; but it's hard to do when the person on the other side of the argument isn't responding to what's been said.